Merrick boards, $650

Well you better call and let them know before another willing buyer pays $650 for one.

Here in oregon ,a custom board cost's $550. I remember in High school ...late 80's boards were about $250. Whats going on? How much are you guys paying for boards? Then I started to look into shaping my own board. I think I remember calling a local glasser and getting a quote of "in the $325 range". Jesus ... I'm thinking $650 might be a good deal for an Al Merrick.Is this about right? Fill us in here.

$650 is cheap for a CI, Rusty, Stretch, JC, JS, COLE, Patterson, Hamish, Chile, LOST, DHD, Simon Anderson, BREWER, LINDEN. I can go on and on. Surfboards are under priced as they are. Those on Swaylocks who build their own boards should know that a lot of work is involed and the materials are not getting any cheaper. When back yard boards are $400 and it's iffy with the board will even work right?

$650 is a pretty low price to pay for a board off the rack that you can touch feel and know what you are buying and have it right then and there. The head shaper like a Merrick or a Rusty or any other master board designer puts a lot of know how into a design and delivers a fine retail product. There is a market for people who want a board they can see touch and feel without waiting for weeks. There is also a market for guys who want a custom and only will ride customs and that's a different segment all together.

To say that $650 is too much for a retail board?

I'm sorry but I have to disagree.

1. Make your own board 

2. Take the total amount of material and subtract it from $650.00

3. Take the balance and divide it by the hours spent.

4. Compare your quality with a professionally built board by experienced craftsman?

5. CNC Operator, Finish Shaper, Laminator, Hotcoater and Fin Setter, Sander, Airbrusher, Designer, Packaging, Transportation, Marketing

6. If your on Swaylocks it's so you can build your own or share your methods of building.

7. For some people $650 is a great value!

8. Not everyone builds boards.

9. The retailers don't make that much on boards. It's the accessories that bring in the revenue. The board is the attaction. Around that life style of surfing is the need for (Traction, Leash, Board Bag, Wet Suit). Now your a surfer! So you need to look like one? Surf branded jeans, Shirts, Trunks, Shoes, Socks, Belt, Sun Glasses, Watch. It all starts with the board. Just like McDonald's the margin is low on a BIG MAC it's the French Fries and Drinks that they make their margin.

Trust me there is little money in surfboards.

You got to love it!

Let the board builders make a little scratch.

Share some love!

Surfding

I must say Doc from your perpective that was well put!

Well, thanks. I do try... and you did a nice job describing the costs of making 'em. And if I may, let me take that a little further.

What does your (name brand, bought retail) surfboard cost?

Start off with a blank. Using Fiberglass Supply as a price base and a 7-something board, lets sort it out -

Blank, $100 plus shipping. And we'll figure all the others have to be shipped too.

Cloth: $30 or so

Resin -poly, call it $50, epoxy is double that.

Fin box(es) - call it $10-20

Fins- $20-50

Okay, that's basic materials. Lets call it $250. Yes, a big board maker will be getting a quantity discount, But they have other costs, it all comes out in the wash.

Labor costs:

Shaper: lets call it $25 - some (most) make more, some make less. And from here, it's guesswork, but not bad guesswork.

Glasser: same

Hotcoater and fins: $20

Sander: $20

Polishing: $10

Lets call labor another hundred, total. We are now up to around $350.

Sandpaper, sanding discs, polish, brushes, solvents - call it another $20

Rent on your factory building - $5 per board isn't way out of line.

Electricity - $5 per board, figuring in everything from power tools to running your secretary's computer

Trash hauling: and janitorial: $10

Office expense - $20, including phone bills, secretary's salary and your idiot  brother in law who needed a job.

Promotion and advertising - $10 per board. This is probably very low. Magazine ads are damned expensive, as are videos, promos, trade shows and so on.

"Team" - you know, those parasitic clowns who get their boards and travel expenses and so on free, plus another nice chunk of dough in pay. Yep, $10 per board.

Insurance, including health, workman's comp, fire, liability etc. - if it's only $20 per board, it's a miracle.

Vehicle expenses: $5, you gotta haul stuff, not everything is getting delivered.

So where are we? Around $450 per board, by the time it goes out the door. And there are things like payroll, payroll taxes ( 10% of your labor costs), federal state and local taxes (10% of net)  and what have you that I have left out, but on the other hand some of my guesstimates are probably a little high, some low - lets call it a total cost of around $450 or more.

Oh, and- you sold a dozen boards in, lets say, Northern Califoirnia. Your norcal factory rep is on commission plus salary. Thwack.

So, $500 per board, wholesale? Not that unreasonable at all. We are not talking about 'gouging' here, we're talking about net profit percentages in single digits to the business owner.

Though if I had the money to set up a surfboard factory, I think I'd just invest it and live off the interest. More money in that. And less headaches.

hope that's of use...

doc...

As for CI boards they certainly have a following. If you find a board you like you can get exact duplicates which could be valuable to some people.

You can get Merrick boards for $650?  They're closer to $750 when I see 'em.  Heck, Firewires are $650 and they're mass produced, I think.

Wayulllll.....

'Custom' made by somebody who isn't a 'legit business', with a tax number and all the overhead that being a legitimate business entails, that's definitely cheaper.

You don't have -

Insurance costs

Team and promotion costs

%$#@@& advertising costs

Taxes

Rent

Reps and all that overhead

Office overhead

Other costs I didn't think of.....

Plus, if Joe Down The Street makes it, it's really yours. You had some real input, not just filling in a form and hoping for the best. He's right Down The Street, and he will stand behind it and listen to your feedback.

Or, he won't, and you chalk that board up to experience and go to Louie Further Down The Road.

And..he's not a production guy. That's good and bad. The good is, maybe if he's not 'on' that day, he'll bag it and go surfing and come back and do your board when he's feeling up and into it.

The bad is that he might not be, say, a Phil Becker, come in with a horrible hangover and fire up the Rockwell 653 and crank out board after board that are smack on 'cos he's done it fifty thousand times before and it's a reflex. He might not be the greatest glasser going on his bad days, he might be a better shaper than glasser or vice versa.

I'm not even gonna start on how good a sander he might be. I will say that a bad sander can ruin a board in a moment. A good sander can help it considerable. And it's an acquired skill in production quantities. That I haven't got. I admire those guys, underrated as they are.

Heh- and here we are on Sways, which is all about regular humans making boards. And....this is why.

It's a helluva note, after all the economics and monetary systems blather we've had of late, the economics of having a really right board drives ya here. To do your own....

doc....

Doc:

I have a LLC..

I pay taxes and have insurance.

We have a CNC Machine.

I do not use a ghost shaper.

We have in house glassing.

I buy my blanks in bulk and get a proper discount.

I take orders on Monday and deliver the boards on Thursday.

There are guys that do it much cheaper and take 6 weeks as a norm.

We scan boards and make Shape 3D files for board companies. (Bread and Butter)

Knowing how to build boards helps us to communicate.

We like to provide the picks and shovels and let the board builders find the gold!

Sure I can make a custom however if a surfer can save $5.00 he will.

Making boards for shops is scary because retailers use your money to finace themselves.

$650 for a Retail Surfboard is actually a fair price if everyone gets paid correctly!

Here in MA I just custom ordered a schaper from the local shop and its going to be around 575, and thats what most of the boards around here retail for unless they are cheap like a bic or something. After what was stated above 650 does not seem too bad. When I shaped my board it took me about 2 months in the Summer, I couldnt tell you how many hours it took. Granted I was using handtools while most use planers, the guy making the board has to get rewarded for putting in all the hours, no matter who shapes your board. Its hard work.

Doc,

No offense taken! I know the Phlem Flam that goes on. It's easy to get stereo typed in this business.

You were close. I have a lean set up in order to stay alive in today's enviroment.

Kind regards,

Surfding

If you want your shortboard to last more than a year don't use it.

My point, exactly. Something that costs over $500 should last more than one year. It was not that long ago when a short board would yield three or four years of use, at least. it's no wonder that Surftech and similar brands have grabbed so much of the market.

My point, exactly. Something that costs over $500 should last more than one year. It was not that long ago when a short board would yield three or four years of use, at least. it's no wonder that Surftech and similar brands have grabbed so much of the market.

If you surf a lot $500 divided by 20 sessions $25 a session divided by 10 waves that's $2.50 per ride.

New board every 3 months is a $1,000 per year.

I think that's pretty cheap and well worth it!

The $650.00 Surfboard made by a famous shaper like Rusty, Stretch, Al Merick, Brewer, Linden and so on is like a ROLEX!

Sure there are customs by some good shapers out there for less. And most of them deserve $500 or more even thought they will settle for much less.

I have guys who know how to surf that say, "If the deck doesn't conform to their feet then the board builder is a "KOOK"!

Light boards that fall apart are great. Just make a new one ever 3 weeks! It's good for the economy!

Sammy there are some good Surf Tech Models that will give you the year your looking for.

Sammy, I am 110% with you.  The lack of durability in modern shortboards if effing shameful.  But then, they are built to a market composed of kiddies for whom this is "normal" and the fall-apart nature just shows how heavily these immature little shitz are shralping.  NOT.

That's one of several reasons why I've never had a board I didn't make myself.  Gotta discount my first 9'6" that my grandfather made, but I suspect the down-the-street ex-pro glasser that finished it, cleaned it up a little.  I've gone down that road a few times for friends.

Make 'em yourself, a little heavier, and they'll last longer.  The effort you spend will have you taking better care of the board so as to preserve your effort.  Yes they will be a little heavier and no you won't have a new one every three months like the little scumsucker down the street.  But it'll be yours, and to some of us, that's priceless.

Sway's is here to help all of us in exactly that journey - to make our own boards, better, faster, stronger and all.  IMUA!

Back in the 70's the glassing standard was 6 oz with tail and fin patches.  A 10 pound board was the norm.  It isn't that boards are worse today as a failure of the manufacturer, but instead the manufacturer is filling the demand of the buyer. 

Most of today's surfers prefer the trade off of weight over strength.

I still have a board from the 80's that is in almost perfect condition, but it is heavier, so it doesn't ride as well.  If it doesn't ride as well, I'm not having as much fun, so what's the point?  I'll accept the trade off for a lighter board.

The new board's are made just as the mass's want them,,,, Lite, thin and nimble

the same ones the pro's ride

so the mass producers give them what they want

and charge accordingly

I sure as hell aint giving away any boards that I make

its a lot of work and time

and I am getting pretty good at it

but I am humble (I still have a lot to learn and skills to aquire)

Saltbush your figures intrigued me, so I did a CPI (consumer price index) aka inflation comparison.

My thoughts before doing it were that to compare against just property wasn't meaningful due to the stupid house prices that we have in Oz - the IMF (International Monetary Fund) considers us overvalued. This is due to too high demand (from immigration not reproduction - aussies don't produce enough kids to replenish the population) and insufficient supply - not enough building to meet the population expansion. I think a certain amount of stupidity too - doesn't make sense to spend all ones wages on a mortgage.

so I first did it on the price of Australian milk since 1995 (milk was deregulated in about 2000 which would skew things a bit but looking at the graph the effect wasn't huge)

http://www.xcheque.com/data/charts/aus-annual-milk-price.html
1995 Milk $3.58
2009        $3.91

just %9 increase in milk.

so surfboards have gone up more in comparison

taking a bigger basket of goods is the CPI which uses:

# Food
# Alcohol and tobacco
# Clothing and footwear
# Housing
# Household contents and services
# Health
# Transportation
# Communication
# Recreation
# Education
# Financial and insurance services

our stupid housing situation would skew things a bit but this is an interesting comparison. Running the Reserve Bank of Aus calculator on a $600 good in 1995 and projecting forward to 2009 produces a

$852 surfboard  CPI is up 42% for that period

However I don't think Oz has a realistic CPI due to housing costs. So taking the milk example as well I think if anything the surfboard has held or even increased its price, particularly as there has been a technology improvement in production efficiency - the CNC - this should bring the price down.

However just coz the surfboard has held its price well doesn't mean its selling at price which reflects the huge amount of labour that goes in - no technology shifts in glassing or sanding. Surfboard builders have been making a pittance for a long time in an environment hazardous to health. What this tells me is that perhaps the board building industry is getting a bit more sensible with some of those on a pittance leaving the industry to do something more fruitful.

it looks to me that the industry is best for those who have built up a sufficient reputation to command a large fee to wield the planer and sign it personally or for the entrepreneurs with organised firms. I suppose the part timers with day jobs can treat it as a semi-hobby, but thats not making a living from it.

mr j           work this comparision out      last week i needed a new power point in my workshop

& i had waited 3 weeks to get it done  bill $200      plumber $60 for a f##kin washer on a tap

when i built my house the plumbers work was shit so after inspection ha''   i went round & redone it to my satisfaction.       my point is these cnuts want & get $80+ an hour  and expect me to go in my shaping room

 and work for $10     i can do there job  can they do mine not f####Kin likely.

I now know from making my first board based upon the time it took me (2 months on and off) and the expense of the materials, there isnt much profit even in a $650 board.  I just plunked $750 (plus the shipping $150) down for a Campbell Bonzer made to my specs and I think it was a fair price.  Not cheap, but fair.

Funny how consumers don't want to admit their part in most purchase blunders. If you go and plunk down your hard earned money (any amount) without doing your homework or asking any questions about construction, glass schedule, design etc., you really can't blame the shaper. If you buy a "Pro's" ultralight board and get one, who's to blame? Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh...

In 1999, the stock 9'6" that I had my eye on retailed for $450USD. I asked the shaper about the foam he used (Clark Blue), The stringer (Bass), and the glass schedule (6 - 6/4). I then asked him about a custom - nearly stock measurements. I liked the Clark Blue foam (I think it was called blue??), but asked for a reversed grain stringer, and to add another layer of 4oz cloth to the deck. He told me that it would be $100 more - sold! That was my mainstay performance longboard for 7 years, the extra glass & sturdier stringer extended the life of the board considerably - it's still in service today.

Ask questions when you shop, and be realistic! $650.00 for an CI doesn't sound too bad to me, especially given the above posts! I'm getting ready to drop some cash with a new shaper for a custom - He's answered all of my questions; even come back with reasons why certain aspects of my design wouldn't work, and the adjustments to make it work (rather than just saying "sure I can do that!" - I feel he's earned my business and - if the board works! ;-)  - repeated business.

Huie,
I saw your post this morning, but needed to do a bit of perfunctory reading before replying.

immigration causing demand for housing => labour market demand for plumbers goes up.

immigration taking in more IT workers than plumbers => labour market demand for plumbers goes up

historically strong unions in Oz => technically not alllowed to even change a tap washer yourself! => labour market demand for trivial plumbing jobs maintained which diverts labour away from big plumbing jobs and makes plumbers expensive and so on..

strong plumbing labour market => plumbers demand a lot of money for their services.

Why shapers aren't raking it in:

immigration attracts mainly people who don't surf (this is just my theory, just what I am observing in Vicco - this could well be the proximity of Melbourne to the surf, I have no figures and of course this is a good thing for those who already surf). Maybe different on the Goldie?

anwyay Surfing population goes up less rapidly than population => demand for surfboards steady.

entrepreneurs moved into the surfboard industry => big organised firms capture huge chunks of the surfboard market. In comparison a factory full of capital equipment is never going to help the plumber change your washer so they resist competition from big firms naturally.

entrepreneurs who use overseas production => local surboard labour market weakens - the plumber in comparison has natural protection from this - can't ring up a plumber in Asia to change your washer.

Asia starts to produce surfboards with its own organised firms => local labour market weakens

No disrespect intended to plumbers or surfboard shapers - its just there is no point in us encouraging young lads like Scboy or Sickdog to enter the surfboard business - better let the market remain to the already well established shapers and entrepreneurs.

Plumbing is a better trade to be entering right now. Its estimated that it would take a full year of non-stop building in Vicco just to cover the housing shortage for this point in time - and that will change in a years time. It seems the best thing right to enter the Australian workforce now is to have mining skills - eg crane driving and engineering for mines. This is because of China's need for our resources. The Australian Financial Review said today that there is such a shortage of the mining workers that its holding back oil and gas mining projects. Our government tends to take the easy way out with skills shortage - more selective immigration.

I wouldn't advise anyone to enter my field either - software engineering - just gives me a harder time! I don't have numbers on software immigration vs plumbing but here are numbers for software vs electricians. Plumbers are probably similar to electricians
Immigration to Oz year end 2009
3,879 Computer professionals
   903 electricians
1,192 mechanical engineers
6,238 Accountants!!!??

Huie, you are fortunate to have entered the surfboard industry to see and experience the changes it has gone through and had a chance to be part of surfboard design develpment.

Shit should have gotten my degree in geology and moved to Oz.

Just seen a UK shop advertising the Fishcuit at £650 or $1040 for conventional PUPE

Let's face it, the big manufacturers don't pay that for materials. Blank is more like $50-60 pr. blank (by the container load). Shipping for a full container may be $10 pr. blank? Cloth is pretty close maybe $5-10 too high, resin way off unless you use a gallon pr. board. (1 gal. RR is $69). so say $35 for a board for epoxy, $25 for polyester??. Production finsets incl. boxes $30-50 for retail, is a 25-30% on that to much to ask if you make 200+ boards a week? Say $125-175 total? Then add 2-3 hours of work in a production environment.

Rule of thumb is a 50% markup from wholesale to retail. Somehow I doubt that's the case for surfboards though depending on brand it will be close.

The really odd thing is, you can get a complete board from China (sans shipping) for less than the US material cost estimate... go figure.