what creates drive ?
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what creates drive ?
I read the long thread about defining drive and am curious as to what creates it?
I know that every thing (almost) in a design is a compromise between two variables (speed/drag) (maneuverability/stability) so improving one comes at a cost.
What I was wondering is what attributes help increase the amount of drive in a surfboard (ie flatter rocker, fins further back?)
And what will be the offset of the increased drive (less maneuverabilty?)
Thanks
Jim N
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Re: [jimithesaint] what creates drive ?
Gravity has it's part to play in creating speed. Not sure if that helps.
The American Dream
Gee Bender how am I going to get through these bars? Gee, I don't know moron, how about I bend them?
Re: [jimithesaint] what creates drive ?
I don't think one can "create" drive...there is no actual additional energy created anywhere in a board, only harnessing, returning or resistance.
Curves merely make it easier to break the direction of the fall-line, like a spoon edge through butter as opposed to a knife edge...
Simplistically, it is indeed a balance of compromises between falling and control. Aft-placed fins are a control factor and in turn create greater resistance when direction changes are demanded...i.e "stiff"
And flatter rockers are faster only up to a point, because if the board is not fitting well in a pocket, it loses the source of energy.
Josh
www.joshdowlingshape.com
Re: [jimithesaint] what creates drive ?
Twin keels, six or so inch butt crack, 11 inches or so between the tips? Mike
Re: [speedneedle] what creates drive ?
Well put speedneedle! I completely agree. For a givin speed and curve of wave face you can only make a board that is hydrodynamic. No more that that. That is why we all have diff. sizes of surfboards. Fins that cavitate on a bottom turn or trying to muscle a flat rockered board to turn is not effecient. Flat rockered boards only are fast on plane/trimming.
Mahalo,
MW
Re: [jimithesaint] what creates drive ?
Briefly,
Getting to the question
Since you didn't provide your own definition, I'll go with mine. Drive in this context is a reference to the quality of an acceleration, in particular a continuous controlled acceleration, rather than a jerky and/or less controllable or less predictable one.
Gaining or loosing...
Surfing has a sort of duty-cycle; in general, part of the time your gaining energy, and the other part of the time, your loosing energy, sprinkled with moments when the two balance.
Unlike objects hurling about in outer space, a object moving with a constant velocity in a viscous medium, if only partially submerged requires a force. So even if you're moving with a constant velocity, you will be both acquiring and burning energy to do so.
Half the story...Sources of energy*
There are three basic sources of energy available to the surfer surfing on a wave: what he brings with him; the kinetic energy inherent in flow of water; and, the planet's gravitational field.
You may see your surfing style as turning a lot, but even if done smoothly and seamlessly, one maneuver to the next, you will be cycling through this duty cycle. And if you're gaining energy, that energy is coming from one of the three sources mentioned in the last paragraph.
Acceleration
But energy is not acceleration. Energy is just a form of accounting, it doesn't exist. It has no pure form. It is always associated with something like a force or relative motion. So the above reference to three sources of energy could have been termed instead as three basic “forces”: whatever force the surfer himself can bring to bare biomechanically; the forces developed from changes in the momentum of the flow of water; and, the force associated with the gravitational field.
Since force defined as mass times acceleration, all can play a role in drive, and surfboard design or mechanical design in general, can be used to both harness and control each, to the extent that each can be respectively harnessed and controlled.
Perception
A given surfboard which seemingly provides one surfer with all the necessary tools to harness and control these forces, may seem less so to another. This isn't just a matter of skill level, but technique too. This relates back to the use of the term drive, not all are guaranteed to experience it on similar equipment, let alone experience it to the same degree. This is obviously important, particularly with regards to the role of technique. Given the way some surfer surfs, he may find that a certain design element seems to provide him with this sense of drive at the right times. That same design element viewed as less important, if at all, in providing a sense of drive by another surfer.
Getting back to the question
So the question becomes, who's the market. And 'who' includes conditions, and technique. So define the market. Is it a market that wants to rip up slower mushier smallish 3-4 ft waves? Or a market that wants to survive and maybe get a little more done on 40-60 ft waves? Or any number of other scenarios.
Once the market is known, you can then start the trade-off exercise.
kc
*the other half of the story is energy sinks, or ways of dissipating energy, all of which are critical in design... but like I wrote at the beginning of the post "Briefly, "
Re: [jimithesaint] what creates drive ?
I read the long thread about defining drive...
Hey jimi, it would be helpful to know what "drive" is.
_________________________________
As you slide down the banister of life,
don't let your arse collect too many splinters.
Re: [speedneedle] what creates drive ?
I'm not sure fitting-in is all that desirable. In fact, the essence of surfing is about not fitting-in.
In my post to jimthesaint I stated the three sources of energy, or three basic forces. The one which defines surfing, or puts surfing in a separate class is the second one listed: in terms of force, the forces developed from changes in the momentum of the flow of water. Predominately, this take the form of the forces developed during planing – a partially submerge object in some fluid, colliding with the flow of that fluid. So getting in the way of that flow is critical.
I would argue that surfboards really aren't design to fit into the curvature of a wave face, but to exploit that curvature in order to generate force. The 'attack' in angle-of-attack suggests as much, without it I'm not sure what you have.
As I also wrote in my response to jimthesaint that you are either gaining or loosing energy when surfing. This is true because water is a viscous medium. So even if you're trimming in a barrel, you're burning energy, and that energy is coming from somewhere, and in that case from the colliding water on the bottom of your board.
If you fit in you are 'not making trouble' so to speak, that is you are not colliding with the flow, and if you're not colliding with the flow, you are loosing energy.
Design is about providing the surfer with right tools to 'not fit-in'.
kc
Re: [kcasey] what creates drive ?
I'm (edit out 'not') sure fitting-in is all (edit out 'that') desirable. In fact, the essence of surfing is about...
..getting barreled.
If you fit in you are...
..tubed.
Design is about providing the surfer with right tools to...
..get BARRELED!
_________________________________
As you slide down the banister of life,
don't let your arse collect too many splinters.
Re: [jimithesaint] what creates drive ?
I guess I should have defined my opinion of the term drive - I like the 2 following definitions from the Drive Defined thread
Drive is you ability to work against the flow of the water to build speed. (Everysurfer)
Drive is the ability to capture flow with board and fins, and use it to build speed. (NJ Surfer)
Thanks for all the input - it helps me to better understand how the different aspects contribute to the ride.
Jim
Re: [jimithesaint] what creates drive ?
Howzit jimi both of your favorite definitions include the term "build speed". To me that says thrust. Personally I think the term 'drive' is too nebulous, but thats ok.
What I was wondering is what attributes help increase the amount of drive in a surfboard (ie flatter rocker, fins further back?)
'Performance attributes' would be maximum thrust and minimum drag. 'Design attributes' can vary a lot depending on who you talk to.
Focus on fin setup and bottom edges. For example, I can take a three finner, covert it to a quad and have way more drive. However, not just anyone can make a good quad, it takes some skill and knowledge to get them right. So if you dont know how, have some one who does do it for you. You can also got more drive by switching fins - some fin designs are designed to maximize drive. Fin flex/material also plays a big role. Boards with too much rocker or too soft edges can often lack drive.
_________________________________
As you slide down the banister of life,
don't let your arse collect too many splinters.