what do you think of randy french?

I may be wrong but I think almost all of the wet suits are made in Thailand. It would be offly cold in the water with out one. And using the labor in Thailand they still cost a lot of money for something that I ware out in about 2 years. I know this is about Randy French, we are all up set about the type of board I think not where it is build. I think this whole thing will blow over, of corse I keep saying the same thing about all of the hip that surfing is getting now.

I think that people generally put the same value upon you as you put upon yourself. this means that shapers in general do not value themselves very highly - obviously rf does.
It still amazes me that custom boards have become relatively cheaper over the last decade. The intelligent market response to surftech should be that shapers should immediately put their prices up and glass their boards a little stronger. It's a truism that the the more a product costs, the more desirable it is - think about it and put your prices up 25 %, no 30 % - you'll not lose customers and you'll gain value in the eyes of all surfers.

To have a surfboard made custom should be thought of as an aspirational goal - not a cheap option.

Silvy...hear here from the dirt floor of the house of uncommons.Ye speak a truth I agree with in totality...may the winds blow a fair bit o' funds to those what can spend em wisely in the name of George Cooper,a thrifty old friend.these fine pieces o' artwork are worth much more than money...even without a tailblock ambrose ...at the helm steering for a better economic standing in the 1 st world

Hey you guys. You know, I have been pretty anti-surftech forever. But last week I was talking to one of my grom buddies and he was showing me a buckle in his new Channel Islands Shortboard. The thing was that he had just gotten it back from being fixed, another buckle. Back in the day when Bagman was buying his boards, big-old 10 foot volan strong-as-hell boards were the norm. Everyone was trimming along and hanging 10. But sadly, nowadays that is not the case. The kids now are doing all kinds of maneuvers that stress the hell out of their boards. And they want them lighter lighter and ever LIGHTER. So "If your board is buckling, make it stronger" aka make it heavier school of thought isn't working. These kids are turning to surftechs... they are lasting longer. Yeah they break also, and ding... but they are lasting longer. At least out at my little fishbowl that I live in... Pleasure Point. And it isn't helping that there are some kids out there killing it on those things. My point is though, that these poor kids are saving up their money, 4-500 bucks, only to have their boards break in the first couple months? Geez I feel sorry for em. And these kids- they aren't gunna ride longboards... that option is out of the question. They are going to ride the lightest smallest thing they can find. All of you guys who think that shorboarding sucks... disregard this post. Thanks -Carl

Carl Olson, you sir are correct. What has made it even worse is some shapers have gotten used to like making these boards that buckle (always in the same place) and getting 600 bucks per stick. They actually want you to buy 5 new boards from them per year.

I have ridden the new crop of potato chip boards (called this due to their thickness or lack thereof) and can see the benefits. However, most surfer kids cannot afford to spend 3K per year on boards. The surftechs are where its at.

I have been happy with both epoxy and poly boards. I ride them all. However, I would have to say that the future of the ultra thin performance board is going to be in epoxy. Yeah, the pros may stay with poly, but the average kid on the block is going to have to get the most bang for his buck. As far as logs go, I like both, but cannot see getting an epoxy that is longer than 9'0". Just feels weird to me.

Also, what kind of royalties do the shapers get for allowing Surftech and Boardworks to use their shapes and names?

RANDY.FRENCH....= genius ...the guy had the common sense to know something superior when he saw it , and had the guts to stand up to the established industry even tho people were opposed to him....
his biggest opposition has come from the status quo'ists ,who through rumours and propaganda have stiffeled the natural progression of the surfboard industry towards superior contruction techniques and materials ...
the clark lovers have been bagging epoxies for 20 years while continuing to push second world war polyester technology...
now a whole industry has been left twenty years behind ....
and i dont hear people blaming clark for holding it back ????
but people blame randy for moving it forward and putting superior boards in the hands of the average surfer???
this guy has made a massive contribution to surfing and to the progression of the industry....little wonder there made in thailand ,coz no one in america would make em without being held to ransom or threatened in some way....
the most bizaar thing tho,,,,people are still trying to fight it ....
all you poly lovers out there '''''' WAKE UP . you gota understand randy has opened up a door and theres gonna be huge amounts of crew chasing custom epoxies ,because theve been exposed to superior equipment and wont go back ,there next choice will be custom ,randy has opened up a huge market for anyone with enough guts to go and buy a vacumn pump some epoxy resin ,eps ,pvc,bagging equipment....and you dont even have to convince anyone its better ,the customer will already know....

theres a market just sitting there and there only choice is surftech....while all these board builders sit around complaining ,wo is me , wo is the industry,why arent i making any money,come on guys get with the program......

im sitting here in oz with close to a ten month waiting list for epoxy boards,while the poly builders around me are sitting there wondering what there gonna do next week,the other guys who are busy do nothing but complain about margins and how hard they have to work.....when most of the epoxy guys are naming there price.....
the people have spoken ,the choice is there's not ours ,,,ultimatly its the customers who determine the direction of the market.....
ok so i dont agree with everything surftech...but i say randy french has done a huge service to the surfboard industry......its just to many people dont recognise it yet.....
Randy gets the thumbs up from me.....
regards
BERT

I have a thought for you guys. What if a shaper was making the exact same thing as Randy (surftech)? Then the board would be a custom shaped EPS epoxy sandwich board... would people still scream bloody murder at the sight of it? What if that happens? What if the next generation of kids begins to prefer surftech-style technology? Will custom versions of the boards become a market? What will people say then? I know that at Arrow, Bob Pearson has been building The exact same thing for years... custom for anybody who wants it. He even has an old Mavs gun (for Frosty Hesson) kicking around in the back.... it's so frigging old. So the possibility exists.... I am sure there are others that do the same thing. Will the shapers of today be using a complete different technology tomorrow? -Carl

I can't vouch for their skill as shapers (I am too new at it all), but I know of several shapers in So.Cal.
who build custom epoxy boards, both Clark with epoxy resin and EPS or XPS with epoxy.
--4est (ForestFisher@sbcglobal.net)

Bert, you are full of it. Epoxies are NOT superior. They are lighter, sometimes, but they are made from the EXACT same thing as a two dollar foam beer cooler that you pick up at Sav-On Drugs. And then they wrap it in some crappy particle board, followed by a wrap of plastic, all done by someone in Thailand who says, "Boss, what the hell is this thing?"

I have many boards (too many if you ask some people I know) and they are all Poly, that world war two material you talk about. You know what else they used in World War Two? Steel. That stuff is outdated technology. They need to stop using it. Instead of making things out of steel, they should be using plastic. For example, plastic door handles on cars are better than steel. They are lighter, right? Steel lasts too long, darn it. They should especially make more moving parts out of plastic instead of steel.

Another World War Two material is wood. In fact, that material goes back even farther than WW II. They need to stop using that stuff too. I can't believe all the crap they build using that outdated junk. My kitchen cabinets are wood, and to make matter worse, solid wood! I would much rather have some kind of styrofoam wrapped in plastic. It would insulate better and would be lighter.

Polyurethane foam IS the BEST we have right now. The only pro shortboarder who competes on the WCT with an epoxy board is Keiren Perrow, and Australian. I love Australians, and their country, and Perrow is a great surfer, but just think how much better he would be on a real board.

The kids in Santa Cruz need to get jobs if they are so broke that they can't afford a board. If they want it strong, glass it heavier. It doesn't add that much weight. I think what buckles it is the constant hopping they do when they hit a flat spot in the wave. If they had any real talent they would stop all that hopping. Or, they should ride a shape that gets them over the flat spot.

Finally, about wetsuits. I use a wetsuit that is super inexpensive and very warm. I buy the same one at Longboard Grotto every year, and once in a while I can get two years out of it. It's made right here in the USA, one county north, in fact. It is an ALEEDA. All American, baby!

But my biggest question is: Who buys these Surftechs? I rarely see them, and of the few I have seen, they were definitely ridden by beginners.

Oh, and as far as longboarding is concerned, everyone who is experienced in longboarding knows that more weight means more momentum and smoother ride, which also means catching waves earlier. Surftechs don't catch waves easier. The opposite is true, at least that's what I see.

Plus, real surfboards look better. You can see the stringer, the glass (volan) ad the foam. It's beautiful. The finish on a Surftech looks like a plastic cup from Chuck E. Cheese (where a kid can be a kid).

If you EVER catch me carrying a Surftech (unless it's to a dumpster) then I will buy you a case of any beer you want (and lunch).

Fairmont,
Your a beauty! I'll buy you a case of beer and lunch anytime. Funny! Mike

...if surftech were made in USA and the bigger CLARK foam in thailand or somewhere, most of us now talking about the stupidity of build boards with C F...

Fairmont- thought I'd respond to your insightful post.

[Bert, you are full of it. Epoxies are NOT superior. They are lighter, sometimes, but they are made from the EXACT same thing as a two dollar foam beer cooler that you pick up at Sav-On Drugs. And then they wrap it in some crappy particle board, followed by a wrap of plastic, all done by someone in Thailand who says, "Boss, what the hell is this thing?"]

>No not particle board- High density foam. The "plastic" that they "wrap" around the board is Epoxy... seemingly the resin of choice on this forum.

[I have many boards (too many if you ask some people I know) and they are all Poly, that world war two material you talk about. You know what else they used in World War Two? Steel. That stuff is outdated technology. They need to stop using it. Instead of making things out of steel, they should be using plastic. For example, plastic door handles on cars are better than steel. They are lighter, right? Steel lasts too long, darn it. They should especially make more moving parts out of plastic instead of steel.]

>That was then... this is now, I wonder what kinds of interesting composites the military is using today? I also prefere my board not to ride like a tank. So steel is not an option... plus we're not talking about tanks here. They weigh a little too much...

[Another World War Two material is wood. In fact, that material goes back even farther than WW II. They need to stop using that stuff too. I can't believe all the crap they build using that outdated junk. My kitchen cabinets are wood, and to make matter worse, solid wood! I would much rather have some kind of styrofoam wrapped in plastic. It would insulate better and would be lighter.]

>Yeah, wood is great, its really pretty. But once again we are not talking about cabinets here. Besides wasn't wood phased out by more advanced materials years ago? I like my surfboards LIGHT.

[Polyurethane foam IS the BEST we have right now. The only pro shortboarder who competes on the WCT with an epoxy board is Keiren Perrow, and Australian. I love Australians, and their country, and Perrow is a great surfer, but just think how much better he would be on a real board.]

> Oh no! Poor Keiren is standing out in the crowd!! Someone mail this bloke a real board!!! One made of steel and wood! So what if he is the only person not riding what everybody else is riding? Maybe his idea of a "real" surfboard differs from yours?

[The kids in Santa Cruz need to get jobs if they are so broke that they can't afford a board. If they want it strong, glass it heavier. It doesn't add that much weight. I think what buckles it is the constant hopping they do when they hit a flat spot in the wave. If they had any real talent they would stop all that hopping. Or, they should ride a shape that gets them over the flat spot.]

>Wow. You are a genius. Just add a little weight huh? Thats a great idea! Maybe add a little steel? I'm sure the weight would be just fine. Duh! Just because the kids of today surf differntly that you did back in the good old days, dosn't mean that you can pass judgement. I don't sit here and whine about the way you surf.

[Finally, about wetsuits. I use a wetsuit that is super inexpensive and very warm. I buy the same one at Longboard Grotto every year, and once in a while I can get two years out of it. It's made right here in the USA, one county north, in fact. It is an ALEEDA. All American, baby! ]

> Where is your computer made? I sure as hope that you are driving an american made car too. To top it off you probably vote for Bush also. Great.

[But my biggest question is: Who buys these Surftechs? I rarely see them, and of the few I have seen, they were definitely ridden by beginners.]

>Maybe you have your eyes closed most of the time when you are surfing? Wait... are you one of those guys that sit at the top of the peak on your 80 lb board and run over everybody when a set wave comes?

[Oh, and as far as longboarding is concerned, everyone who is experienced in longboarding knows that more weight means more momentum and smoother ride, which also means catching waves earlier. Surftechs don't catch waves easier. The opposite is true, at least that's what I see.]

>Huh? Sure if you are talking about 60's era noseriders. It seems to me that most of the pros riding for the shop that I work at like their HP's to be around 10-11 lbs. Wake up... longboarding has changed alot since the wonderful 60's.

[Plus, real surfboards look better. You can see the stringer, the glass (volan) ad the foam. It's beautiful. The finish on a Surftech looks like a plastic cup from Chuck E. Cheese (where a kid can be a kid). ]

>Thats just your opinion.

[If you EVER catch me carrying a Surftech (unless it's to a dumpster) then I will buy you a case of any beer you want (and lunch).]

>Ditto.... but not for the reasons that you list. -Carl

Thankyou Bert for being the voice of reason once again. Thankyou Carl for making me laugh loud enough for my wife to hear through two walls. I think the people who get festered about any newish construction methods must have low self esteem. Ever notice how most surfers who try to look like a grumpy local are the one's who just can't surf very well? That being said, I think Randy French is a class act and has helped ignite a much needed fire in the surfboard mfg. industry. Wisemen like Bert have been on it for years, and may soon be getting deserved respect due to a new acceptance of progressive materials. Any shapers who want to compete in the future should at least try using a form of sandwich construction. Like Bert said, Clark Foam has been kicking out years of anti-epoxy/styrene foam propaganda, since about 1982. All you shapers have surely gotten the same letters from Clark that I have. Randy French doesn't send out anti-Clark mailings. Randy also have never made any false claims as a few grumpy people have implied on this thread. Just to correct some common misconceptions about Surftech; 1. They are only as "Molded" as a Clark Blank is molded. They are then basically shaped and glassed twice by hand. Boardworks, NSP, and Bic are molded. 2. The word "Popout" should be replaced by the word "Popular" since Surftechs take at least twice the labor of a conventional PU/poly board thus eliminating them from "Popout" definition. Alot of people are buying them, the most sales in the history of surfing, thus the Cobra factory must handcraft a large number. Does extreme popularity equal "Popout"? 3. The craftspeople at Cobra are paid almost twice the average Thai industrial wage, making the job highly coveted. How many U.S. surf craftsmen make twice the U.S. industrial wage? 4. The retail price is higher than old-fashioned PU boards which can only help raise all surfboard prices in the future. 5. Surftechs are only too stiff if you're dumb enough to buy one that's too thick. You only have a few hundred models to choose from. 6. If you like to whine about Surftechs being too light, try a woody, they're about normal weight. Or stick some wax pucks on the nose. Randy French is a swell fellow who has done a swell job. Some pretty reputable signature shapers seem to think so. Now it's time to see people like Bert Burger take it one step beyond with flex and even more durability than the surf world has seen yet.................By the way , I had a killer session today on a bright orange vinyl 6'4" Liquid Shredder! No fiberglass in it, just HD styrene foam, wood, and orange vinyl shrink wrapped! How come no one's harping on Liquid Shredder? Their website says over 70,000 sold! Love Always, Delbert de von Pumpernickel

You're statement is correct Wildy. But here's the good news for the environment. New materials and blowing agents are just on the cusp for the surf industry. Air is the most environmental core and engineered thermoplastics such as Nylon 11 can be made from beans instead of petro. Epoxy and polyester can be phased out for tougher, safer, smarter materials. Now how do I get the poster off the deck of my Liquid Shredder? I had to wax right over it and small chunks of poster fall off each surf session exposing slick orange vinyl. Liquid Shredder is a 99% recycleable surfboard already on the market for kids and beginners. They totally rip if you get the pro fin upgrade. I've been doing successfull boardslides and dissasters on logs floating through the lineup this winter. No dings yet! Run 100% biodiesel B-100 in your truck. Go vegetable products! Oh yeah.....keep the new models coming Randy French......at least they are stronger and lighter and in my eyes, very beautiful. Love Delbert Pumpernickel

Oh Dale - How dare you cloud up the issue? Ha! Many waves, many boards.

Quote:

But surfers should never claim to be green. We should all know the amount of chemical shit that goes into the atmosphere during the manufacturing of materials and making of a board.

The beautifully crafted stick you carry into the waves did not fall out of the trees. And if it's a wooden board, then the tree has already fallen.

I agree with you Wildy, surfers are as guilty as the next guy for creating/promoting/using toxic chemicals in pursuit of pleasure. However, we can still BE green to a certain extent by choosing what we ride, whom to support, and to minimize waste through recycling, carpooling to surf spots, biking to the beach, and riding boards that aren't "disposable" -- i.e. a board surfed regularly that will last over a year.

I don't think the enviro issues should be completely ignored, and it seemed that many posters on this thread were concerned predominantly with ethics. To each his own; Live and let live.

Hey Bert,

You said so well:

>>but at the end of the day the surf media has a bias slant to the commercial side of surfing ,,a genuinely gifted surfer or a unique develpment in equipment will simply get ignored coz it doesnt pay the bills<<

Cheyne proved that one 4 years in a row on the circuit but his heart is in the right place and continues to teach others to surf along with taking the limits of single fin surfing further than anyone on the planet that I know of. I hope he's doing well he certainly diserves a lot of credit. As we know money drives the politics of the surf scene or any scene for that matter. Having great ideas that's one thing but if you want recognition you only get it if you're in it for the long run unless you have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$s and the right people around you. French's success is a reflection of excellent business management and intelligent investment of funds and product choice along with a great advertisement front. We have to remember that advertisement and disposable products drive much of the world market. Surfboards are no different. I am very thankful there are a few, like yourself and a few others like George Greenough and Doug Haut that hold on to the true essence of what surfing is really about, which I'd sum up as personal expression of building it and riding it and focusing not what you have, how you look, what you can buy, or flooding the market with planned obsolecence, which we know can backfire bigtime.

Give a wave ~ get a wave, Rich

I worked for a guy who sponsored and made boards for many of the top French amatuer surfers. Most of those guys were sponsored by gotcha, lots of clothes mainly, and was specified that their logo go prominently on the nose of the board.

I had some objections to this, as they played no part in the boards design, manufacture or supply, particularly cost.

I suggested to the coach, that as their company professed 'more core' and commitment to their so called hard core roots, then why didn't they sponsor us. We were uniquely located, two experienced surfers and boardmakers, we were prominent in the line-up every day, and we could do with a new pair of boardies.

Even one little pair of shorts would have made putting that twisted 'G' under the laminate a lot easier.

You guessed right, the answer was no.

The Beattles, Stones, Clapton, and Led Zepplin all have one thing in common. Their music is beautiful and nostalgic to us old people. But the bands are crusty and fragile and falling apart or are dead. Brittany is downright more sexy, sleek, and resilient. She's even lighter weight and can do a mean 360 without breaking. As far as the Toyota Prius, I know girls who would gladly wax in the back seat of one. As far as being green/environmental in the surf industry, two boards I'm developing/riding now are 100% recycleable. The construction would be too spooky for me to explain at this point. On topic though.......I've known Randy French since the mid-eighties Gorge days. He has developed his company with very limited self financing, so he wasn't supported by big brother or the media. He's had to scratch and claw to get the recognition he is now getting. If he were selling cheap Asian PU boards,I would understand people being critical/festered. But he's selling products that people really want. And they pay more to get them. I sell his boards and not one of my customers in the last four years will buy another polyester board after riding a Surftech. But I'm from an area with lots of heavy, thick waves. So a little extra durability is very important. As far as the Thai employees, my next door neighbor is from there. They love working for Cobra. Someone on this thread said that nobody would want to trade places with a Cobra employee. To be honest, I'd rather do that than trade places with a U.S. glass shop employee.......cleaner factory, proportionately twice the wage, in-factory Thai kitchen on tap, and lots of stunningly beautiful co-workers. I'm gonna move to Thailand, buy a Toyota Prius, get a job at Cobra, eat the best, listen to Brittany and surf the wind chop of Phuckett beach. Love Delbert Pumpernickel

Okay, I know I should just shut up about this, and I am sure I have worn out my welcome on this topic, but one of my questions went a bit unanswered:

If this technology is really, in fact, superior or even equal to polyurethane, then why aren't more pros using it? There has been more than enough time for them to give it a try, and I bet most of them have, but they probably don't like it. Even with today's ariel-dominated mentality, I'm surprised people like Bruce Irons, Andy, Slater (and all the other top dudes) haven't started using it. I doubt it has much to do with sponsorship, because those guys would ride an ironing board if they thought it would get them more wins. And the big dollars they earn aren't from surfboard sponsors but from clothing sponsors. So, why aren't they all making the switch if it is superior technology?

Because it isn't superior technology. In fact, it isn't even new (but advertised as such). They (Surftech) like to call it third generation (Wood, Poly, and then Surftech), but like I said, it isn't revolutionary. Styrofoam has been around longer than me. Plastic was invented, I believe, in the thirties, and I remember Michael Baron using epoxy resin when I was fourteen (I am now 35).

I am very impressed with French's ability to run a business (if it is, in fact profitable, since I hardly ever see these things) but I am not at all impressed with the product. What's the big deal?

Oh, and what about Mark Richards and Simon Anderson? They were guys who shaped AND surfed professionally. What do they think about it?

Like I said, if it is THAT good, then more of the top pros would be riding it. Unless, of course, the top professionals in the sport of surfing are clueless.

I doubt that very much. These guys, although not shapers, have been studying surfboard design since they were knee high to a grasshopper.

Quote:If this technology is really, in fact, superior or even equal to polyurethane, then why aren't more pros using it?
It's not about being superior. It's about preference.

These materials have different characteristics. An EPS/epoxy board will generally be lighter. Is lighter better? Should we take a vote to form a consensus? Once we get the tally we can all sleep at night. And we can tell the guys that lost the vote that they are riding the inferior boards.

It's like saying that squash tails are superior to round pins. Or Van Gogh is superior to Picasso. Or Coke is superior to Pepsi. If you really want to know which is superior, go ride one, because only you can accurately decide what you find to be superior.

I've got nothing against the politics attached to this issue, but if you really want to do it right, you'll leave the politics on the beach... and let it just be you... the board...and the waves.

And when you decide which one is superior, watch out, because just around the bend is something new, and you might want to give that a try. On the other hand, there are still some guys out there riding balsa...and no ones holding a gun to their head.

A couple of small points taken here could be that the local shop owners actually make considerably more money selling Randy’s surfboards. The big longboard shop in town makes next to nothing selling polyester boards (maybe 10%), but relies on the overseas, sweatshop clothing that is so popular in mainstream U.S.A., and worldwide. The incentives to sell and make more money in local businesses are working for itself. So, those so called expensive boards of R. French give back locally more than the locally built polyester boards.

The last time I checked at my areas glass shop, or as they like to say factory, there are two Mexicans (a father and son)who do the brunt of the work , who by the way have earned enough money over the years to buy a house in So Cal, a laminator who is an ex-con / ex-drug addict, a live in girl friend beater who is now in the county jail, an a revolving door of guys who come and go on a regular basis. The calls from the jail are pretty constant “please bail me out”. In my opinion, they have super low wages and work long, hard hours to make their money w/ no benefits.

On the other hand, like someone here posted earlier, The 300,000. Square foot, state of the art factory where Randy French makes his boards give the workers higher wages than anywhere else in Thailand. For arguments sake, Randy French has given local businesses an opportunity to make more retail dollars, and the local builders a look at raising their prices to more of a living wage. Maybe if it were not for Channel Islands, Rusty, Stewart, and others making the cheaply made boards, we would all be better for it.

Looking at all of this “out sourcing”, over time has changed my mind too. I don’t think there will ever be anything but a world economy. This being said, it might be time to work with the system, not against it. After all, guys like the Irons brothers, Kelly, and other “top dudes”, are making multiple millions on endorsements to sell there products, many of which are made overseas.