you should all read this if you care about custom boards!!!!
you should all read this if you care about custom boards!!!!
To: Jeff Chamberlain
From: Dave Parmenter
Dear Jeff,
Recently you have forwarded to me a number of documents via the Internet that contend with a subject that I am deeply involved in: the design and construction of surfboards. As a rule - after my disastrous attempt at SwelldotCom to write technical essays on surfboards - I have chosen not to become involved in arguments with laymen that concern this arcane craft with its often indefinable ‘science’.
However, in this instance I feel that troops have marched into Poland and that I must not be silent; I must respond so that certain facts can be set out once and for all.
This will be a long and somewhat complex letter, so you may want to print it out and sink into a nice, comfortable chair. Relax, have a cold beer and be assured that I harbor no rancor in this matter to you personally. I hold you as a dear friend whose surfing life and experiences I have always respected. I have learned much from you and have almost always considered your advice as well-given and carrying weight. This time however I should like to ask you to submit to my knowledge of this field as I counter some of the claims made in the above-mentioned letters. If you allow yourself an open mind, I promise you will learn a few things that will certainly deepen your understanding of surfboards.
For the past fourteen years, Jeff, I have been building for you custom surfboards that have allowed you the wider and wider surfing experience you sought. Many of these boards were truly unique creations, available nowhere else in the world, and you were able to collaborate in every aspect of their design, down to the exact placement of leash plugs. These boards ranged from 5’0” bellyboards to Tavarua guns to your “Force 10 From Leffingwell” model, and culminated in the 12’6” 3-stringer mega-board you now enjoy so much. Furthermore, I cannot recall any of those boards breaking or falling apart, and I think you will agree that you, based on the hardcore nature of surfing on the Central Coast (and your use of boats as the favored mode of transportation), place a greater demand on your boards than the average ‘South Of The Horn’ surfer. So I take it as a personal affront that you can so flippantly support a manufacturing ideology that is the polar opposite of the process that created those fourteen year’s worth of extraordinary surfboards.
If many of the contentions put forward about the SurfTech molded boards vs. the traditional hand-shaped/hand-lay-up surfboards were merely a matter of opinion, I would not be writing this. I have better things to do with 14,000 words. True, some of the allegedly ‘ethical’ or ‘aesthetic’ points can be argued solely as matters of opinion, but for the most part there is a wholesale ignorance -or evasion of - cold hard facts as far as the more tangible principles are concerned.
I will deal with these facts at various places in the following text. These pertain to design or engineering falsehoods set out in much of the letters you have forwarded to me. The ethical and aesthetic questions I will deal with as they arise.
Let us begin by looking at claims made by Mr. George, and seconded by you, that these molded SurfTech boards are “simply new” and this “scares most surfers” (since when do new things ‘scare’ surfers?), or represent “new” technology. This is in fact not true. This latest manifestation of molded or “composite” (every foam sandwich surfboard in history - beginning with the Simmons epoxy/polystyrene board in 1948 - has been a ‘composite’) surfboard is not at all new, but merely a refinement and improvement upon other boards of this type that have cycled in and out of the design forefront since the ‘60s. It seems that every decade or so the same construction ideas are recycled (albeit with various improved technologies), though the same problems are recycled as well.
All of these surfcraft have failed, or had some fatal flaw that eventually sank them (literally, in the case of the W.A.V.E. Hollow line which, by the way, was the source of the largest bankruptcy ever in the surfboard industry, and the biggest advertisement debt write-off in SURFER history, in spite of the fact that the publishers allegedly further ‘pushed’ these boards so that they might recover some of the money owed them).
You will notice, if you pardon the digression, that even the most rabid of today’s “collectors” singularly avoid any and all pop-out or molded boards. Why? No doubt because they hold little appeal, either as functional surfcraft or the foci of nostalgia. I find this fact very telling.
All of these surfboard technologies, whether honeycomb & hollow, injected foam core & plastic skin, foam core & veneer, etc. - whatever their individual merits - also have failed to acknowledge the overarching principle of surfboard design (we’ll get to the engineering later): it is not static; it changes constantly. And - this is most important to remember - these design changes traditionally have always emanated from the underground or backyard shaper, usually one that is known as a ‘surfer/shaper’. No valid, widely accepted and permanent design revolutions have ever come from a large-scale manufacturer. More on this principle later, as it links up with what I believe to be the most insidious danger to surfboard design in history.
No large-scale manufacturer, in this case SurfTech (or its poor relation, BIC), could ever keep up with the rapid design changes produced by a gifted or imaginative shaper working independently with polyurethane and polyester. A large-scale overseas manufacturer -such as SurfTech - would be even less able to keep up with design evolution in full stride.
In fact, it would be in the interests of any molded board manufacturer to restrain or control the flow of new ideas to a rate that suits their supply lines and their construction methods (not to mention their bloated advertising campaigns).
For an analogy I feel safe in asking you to consider the automobile industry. Every year, in January, new models are released with fanfare and hype. Any longer than a calendar year and the interest might droop; any shorter and the manufacturing process couldn’t keep up - and the market would be confused and distracted.
In any event, the automobile manufacturers as huge, lumbering, monolithic corporations must artificially create and control the flow of ‘innovation’ to suit their interests. Certainly their manufacturing process cannot react very fast to anything but cosmetic changes, at least not in the way that the backyard surfboard builder can react to new ideas and innovation literally overnight (design history is full of these overnight, reactive boards - some very important surfboards were hastily built to use on the next day of the same swell).
If you or Mr. George really believes that these SurfTech boards are “new”, then you had better read carefully the following story. As I stated above, this technology is not new. It stems from sailboard technology. It has already bubbled up to the fore in the surfing world a couple of times in the past 15 years without showing up on the public’s radar. The following is a brief description of what happened to the sailboard market fifteen or twenty years ago: With the advent of radically shorter wave sailing boards, the hot sailors and local custom designers that built their boards found themselves in the driver’s seat. They built their rapidly changing prototypes with pretty much the same materials and methods that the traditional surfboard uses. But the huge sailboard manufacturers, reeling from the blow of having their over-sized sailboard models suddenly deemed obsolete, scrambled to buy the rights to the new designs, as well as the endorsements of their shapers.
These designs were then factory-built in much the same way as the SurfTech boards are being built now, but with widely varying degrees of quality. The buzzword of “epoxy” was flung around and touted to be “superior” to the “substandard” (once again) polyurethane/polyester sailboards. Then, the sailboard magazines were wowed and quickly climbed in bed with these manufacturers, as they had now become their biggest advertisers. Gullible stooges at the magazines were soon hand-fed the party line: that shape and design were not as important as durability and weight. Isn’t this all starting to sound very familiar? Aren’t you curious to see how it all turned out?
Well, we already know that many of the hot shapers on Maui or the North Shore (or wherever) had been bought off by these huge sailboard manufacturers. The local custom sailboard market almost died out. (Lesson here for the shapers who have ‘sold out’ to such concerns: they are usually the ones who first get hurt.) A techno-philiac war ensued; advertisements screamed about the wonders of epoxy resins. Now that the big guys had bought back the market share they had lost in the wave-sailing revolution, they soon figured out that they didn’t need these ‘hot names’ any longer - they had the baseline models and figured that they could copy any new refinements for free.
No one really paid much attention to the bubbling, delamination or shrinking on these “super high-tech” sailboards - after all, the magazine and the ads said they were “better.” What did the really hot sailboarders do, the guys that progress too fast to wait around for a container-shipped factory board to catch up? Yes, you guessed it: in areas of high winds and large surf, pockets of these elite sailors continued to design and build their own sailboards with traditional materials. And guess what? They found out - after the circular trip - that in the end the higher-density polyurethane boards glassed with polyester resins actually held up better in high-performance conditions than the so-called “high technology” molded sailboards. Why? All of this will be explained in the following letter, but, in short, it was because the traditional boards had a stronger, denser core, and a better bond between this core and the skin, among other reasons. It just took time to see it all balance out.
All of this begs the question: do we, as progressive surfers deeply interested in the excitement of riding better, faster, more maneuverable surfboards, want to follow this same route? (Not interested in any of the preceding sentence? Then skip to the last two paragraphs for your score.) Do we want the flow of design innovation to be presided over by a corporation where a decidedly non-elite (not-so-hot surfers) group of manufacturers or a salesman chooses a shaper and/or design to put into mass production and thus comprise the “hot new board”?
Of course not.
This is why the current ‘popularity’ of molded surfboards will, I believe, be mostly restricted to static, traditional, non-contested designs like the longboard models SurfTech and others are producing. These particular designs are - in my appraisal - generic, neutral, safe-at-any-speed longboards that have seen little change in the past fifteen years and are unlikely to incur any further change during our lifetimes.
Contrarily, contemporary shortboard design changes far too quickly to be profitable in this process. A shortboard design can be rendered obsolete overnight, whereas longboard designs long ago achieved a certain stasis. Hype and ads will claim otherwise, of course, but the fact remains that all it would take is an incremental - but hugely important to a good surfer - change to a modern shortboard and a manufacturer such as SurfTech would be left sitting with shipments of pop-out surfboards that were outdated before they reached the docks in the United States.
If some people want to call these molded boards “kook boards,” well, that is a matter of opinion. I will remark that since it appears that surfing is currently bearing the brunt of the biggest influx of entry-level surfers since the “Gidget” phenomenon, and the bulk of these beginners (or ex-surfers re-entering the sport as recycled beginners) seem to be the main market for the SurfTech boards, then one can understand how these somewhat bland longboard designs have earned this reputation. (As far as the short board models go, it can safely be claimed that no hot surfer would ride one unless he was paid to or was given one free of charge. I have also heard rumors to the effect that some of the SurfTech shortboard teamriders rarely ride the pop-out models they endorse, and actually have regular polyurethane/polyester boards, made by their usual shapers, that are painted in such a way as to cosmetically resemble the SurfTech boards they are supposed to be endorsing. To really good surfers, board design and a relationship with a notable shaper always override materials where performance is concerned.)
Before we proceed any further I feel I should show my hand as to my personal bias in these concerns. First and foremost I should state that I personally feel no threat whatsoever from these or any other similar phylum of mass-produced, molded boards or computer shapes. In fact, for small-scale, efficient shapers like myself they create more business. The current trends that are shaking the limbs of the great tree of the traditional custom surfboard industry are dropping more and more apples into our laps. I am a very small backyard shaper with a stable, loyal clientele that I enjoy working with. None of these individuals are being serviced by the current trends towards impersonality in the surfboard industry.
Production shaping holds no appeal for me, and you know that you have never met an individual less concerned about wringing money from this quaint little cottage industry than I. I have no desire at all to be the next Rusty or Al Merrick; nor do I want to branch into some megalomaniac surfwear company.
That being said, I still care deeply about the historic traditions of the custom surfboard industry, and always will. The thing that fascinates me most in life is the anticipation and wonder I feel when imagining what new hybrid design I will be riding five years from now. As a shaper firmly in control of that destiny I can say with some assurance that any future innovations I enjoy will stem almost entirely from actual design refinements that I concoct or borrow from another shaper, and not from materials changes or surf media hype.
I am deeply worried that the current trends will profoundly affect the evolution of future surfboard design, and feel a certain responsibility -as one of the few remaining present-day surfer/shaper/designers - to face and counter these threats.
I feel little animosity towards the shapers who have “sold out” by shaping a mold plug for a SurfTech model for the simple reason that I am absolutely certain they will end up being ‘hoist by their own petard’, as it were. If you look closely at the history of the surf industry you will see that every business that sold out its “hardcore” roots eventually got its head lopped off in a “hardcore” intifada. I also feel some pity for all the poor saps that buy these boards - only to take their place in the line-up next to ten other guys with a surfboard that is identical to theirs. Surfers have always been very concerned with perceived individuality. How are people going to identify their own board on the beach? What if two or more identical boards wash up on the beach? Will board thieves prey upon this loophole? Will our surfboards now have to have V.I.N.s on them?
Regarding the SurfTech line of surfboards currently being hyped and marketed, I believe that if I were a novice-to-moderately-skilled surfer that wanted an over-sized water toy, say a paddleboard, sailboard or big generic tanker, I would definitely state that their type of composite construction (polystyrene bead foam core, vacuum-bag & epoxy resin) would certainly produce a reliable board (for much the same reasons as a weekend paddler would choose a Scupper kayak over a custom, carbon fiber Tsunami Ranger kayak). If I were a gullible consumer, I wouldn’t understand the difference between impact strength and shear strength.
However, if one is an expert or highly skilled surfer he would mostly ignore this type of surfboard - they’d be far more interested in pressing ahead towards designing or participating in the design of their own custom-made equipment.
That stated, it is time to move on to confronting various statements made in the letters that I was forwarded.
Jeff, you mentioned that Randy French (is he a shaper or a salesman? Why am I told that his last partnership in such a concern fizzled, concerning similar boards made in Slovakia?) had a difficult time “signing up” some of the big-name shapers for his plug building endeavor, and that Gordon Clark “was blackmailing all of them ‘cuz he could see the writing on the wall.” This is not at all true. Gordon hasn’t blackmailed anyone, not now, not ever. In fact, the inverse is true. Ever since the backyard revolution in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s Clark Foam has, during various ‘uprisings’, been under intense pressure from any number of big-time surfboard manufacturers to restrict or cut-off entirely his sales of blanks to the backyard or small-time builder. Gordon has always refused to cave in to this pressure, of which it can honestly be said at times bordered on “blackmail” (boycotts) from many of the major manufacturers. They screamed like stuck pigs that the backyard guys were going to ruin the industry and flood it with inferior, cheap boards that undermined their (self-professed) “standards of quality and integrity.”
Garage workmanship aside, quite the opposite was proven. All legitimate, internationally accepted design revolutions have come from the backyard tinkerer and/or the surfer/shaper. Moreover, it can be seen as somewhat symbolic that many of the prototypical design innovations that put us in the tube, up on the lip, or carving high-G turns came from shapes that were hewn out of stripped down longboards built by the large-scale manufacturers.
This will never, ever change, as long as hot surfers lead design, rather than big manufacturers.
My experiences with Clark Foam are typical of those shapers in the industry who approach their relationship with that company as that of a partnership, without bringing along a chip-on-the -shoulder, antagonistic, paranoid, conspiracy-sniffing, malcontent attitude that is exhibited by so many others in the industry.
I am far from being their best or biggest customer (I purchase a mere 300-400 blanks a year) and yet I have never been treated - by each and every employee of Clark Foam - as anything less than a trusted and valued partner. Questions are answered cheerfully, orders processed with speed and accuracy, and the blanks have always been of unbelievable quality. I have been led to believe, for no ulterior purpose that I can detect, that the company stands firmly behind the small efficient builder that gives the customer good value and a progressive surfboard. Over the past fourteen years of shaping surfboards for a living I have only had to return two blanks, and both of them had minor flaws that would have been irrelevant had I not been planning to shape admittedly off-label designs from the respective blanks.
Gordon Clark has also been “blackmailed” by various government agencies and pressure groups that have tried time and time again to shut down the plant in Laguna Niguel for no other reason than the NIMBY syndrome we see so often in California. Because of these environmental witch hunts the Clark Foam plant has continually implemented cutting-edge measures that far exceed even the most stringent EPA and OSHA safety regulations, and has become nothing less than a model of state-of-the-art industrial safety and hygiene. I seriously doubt that can be said for most of the others in the so-called “green” and barefoot-groovy surf industry. Is there any realistic chance that we’ll see the health program entitlements and cancer rates for all the Chinese women breathing neoprene glue all day to make your wetsuit, or the schematics of the forced-air ventilation hoods and lymphoma rates for the 9-year old kids gluing up your high-end athletic shoes (what do surfers need shoes for anyway?) in a stifling Malaysian workhouse? No, go ahead and slap the Surfrider Foundation decal on the bumper of your Yukon, and drive down to Trestle’s with a reap-the-rainforest double cheeseburger in one hand, and bitch about the Evil Foam Baron Overload Grubby Clark and his Toxic Den of Iniquity. (For more on the various environmental/pollution issues, please see the addenda at the end of this letter)
In reviewing the letters written by yourself and Mr. George, it strikes me that so much of what is perceived as being wrong with the traditional polyurethane/polyester surfboard industry is blamed on Clark Foam. So on we go…
You write, “Grubby saw it coming. The surfboard industry as a whole brought it (SurfTech) on with decades of inferior products…” And in another paragraph you go on to say, “If some $800 Stewart that has a tradition of breaking in less than a year can be replaced by a $550, more durable surfboard (again, SurfTech). …Then trust me the rush will be on.”
Define “durable,” please.
Talking about a Stewart longboard breaking in half ‘in the field’, and comparing it to a SurfTech board being theoretically ‘stronger’, or surviving a couple of blows from a two-by-four at a trade show are two completely different aspects of what comprise “durability.”
Now we can clamber atop firm ground. The engineering precepts that make a sound foam sandwich construction surfboard are very complicated. It would take tens of thousands of words to explain them in all the detail that it deserves. I will say that most of the people that I have spoken with in the surfboard industry and its customer base have no idea what makes a surfboard “strong.” - or even that there are many types of ‘strength’. I will venture even further and say that you yourself have only a vague idea, and Mr. George, based on his past advocacy of stringerless polystyrene bead-foam (Styrofoam) surfboards, has even less of an idea.
In short, the primary, baseline factors that provide for a strong (the many definitions of “strength” such as shear, tensile and compound (impact) strengths further complicates these principles) foam sandwich construction surfboard are founded on, first, its thickness (in relation to its length), the thickness and quality of the skin (fiberglass), the quality of the bond of this skin to the core, and, of course, the integrity and flexibility of the core itself. There are many other complementary factors, of course, but these are the main ones that more than any other define a board’s structural integrity (and breaking point). If you want to read more about this in greater detail, you may want to access the many essays I have written for the Shapers’ Bay section on Swelldot.Com.
The point is this: say what you will about various manufacturers and their “inferior” or shoddy surfboards, but the overriding reason that boards snap in half so often is that over the past 15 years they have simply gotten too thin. I will be the first to agree that there are many board builders out there who put out a weak, poorly built product. They may use over-skilled (yes, over-skilled) ‘speed artist’ contract glassers that permit a ‘dry’ lay-up to buy their shop a reputation for ultra-light boards. They may cut corners and use the least expensive glass and resin they can find. They may choose the wrong density foam or the wrong blank and make it weaker still by using the wrong stringer. Over-shaping of blanks is a huge and largely undiagnosed factor in weak boards; shaping machines are notorious over-shapers. Some are guilty of one or all of the above out of sheer ignorance; others because they are lazy or are bent on shaving more profit out of the endeavor. Some - and these are the worst of the lot - only see a surfboard as a foam billboard to put their ‘hot’ logo on and rake in some more dough.
What it all boils down to is this: If you understand all of the complex - and often contradictory - principles of surfboard engineering then, and only then, are you qualified to make statements as to which is the best way to build the modern surfboard.
The magazines are the furthest off the track, by the way. Mr. George has no right to helm a major surfing publication and be a Surftech rider: the combination of both his ignorance and association with that company is obviously producing propagandist editorializing on his part.
There is absolutely - in my opinion - no better way to build the boards that I as a veteran performance-minded surfer want to ride than by using the polyurethane blanks I am currently working with, and having them fiberglassed by a competent and conscientious craftsman under my personal control. I also firmly believe the heresy (in corporate America) that the best equilibrium for the surfboard industry is reached when it remains a network of small, efficient cottage industries that produce boards for regional surfers on a regional level. I am allowed to make this statement because I use these materials every single day. In fact, I’ll go even further and declare that once a surfboard builder becomes a “major manufacturer” he has effectively destroyed any chance of ever being ‘proactive’ in design rather than ‘reactive’.
Every day I go out into the shaping room, turn on the sidelights, put a blank on the racks, and draw out a planshape. I listen to and talk with surfers about design and construction every single day. I hear about every soft spot, every buckled board, and every sticky turn. At the end of each evening, I blow the dust off, turn off the lights, and leave behind in the darkened shaping bay another new surfboard. This is something that both you and Mr. George do not do, have ever done or will ever do. Jeff, you bemoan the “piecework nightmare,” and Mr. George rails against the drudgery of production work - but what in God’s name do either of you know about it, having never worked in the surfboard industry?
Akin to that thought, I would like to scold those who do not handle foam, put a planer to a blank or squeegee a bucket of resin across the bottom of a shaped blank, to put aside their amateur skullduggery and leave the discussion of the finer points of surfboard design and construction theory to the experts. This remark is especially pointed at those in the media.
If an $800 Stewart longboard - or a 6’1” Merrick for that matter - breaks in half it is not necessarily due to any insidious shortcomings of the polyurethane/polyester surfboard. It breaks not because Gordon Clark is trying to keep everyone mired in the ‘Stone Age’ because he desires to maintain some sinister hegemony over the world’s blank market.
Perhaps surfboards break because too many in the industry are not using the right combinations of blanks, cloths and resins. They break because the consumer (surfer) has gotten too stupid to differentiate between them. They break because their dimensions have far exceeded the limitations of the foam sandwich, I-beam-spined surfboard. A non-surfing engineer would say, “They have simply gotten too thin to support and displace the loads placed on them.”
Don’t forget the manner in which these modern boards are being ridden. Add to this the use of ultra-light foam (so that the board feels light and sexy in the showroom) and overly-thin stringers (saves about two bucks. Whoopee!), as well as a contract glass shop fiberglass job that typically uses only the cheapest and easiest-to-use materials, and you will have a board that is destined for failure. Modern ‘pro model’ longboards, at 2.375”- 2.65” thick, are the worst offenders. It amazes me that they hold together at all. If they were aircraft, I would never climb on board.
A 747 aircraft may seem safe and stable in normal flight, a tremendous feat of ingenuity and engineering, and it is - but there are performance envelopes written into the guidebooks that belie this stolidity. If a pilot abandons those engineering parameters by diving too steeply, and then pulling up too hard, the wings will pull off as if they were brittle twigs.
The same idea applies to surfboards. Many of the designs that surfers want to ride unfortunately have exceeded the engineering parameters that make this type of construction ideal for surfboards. This includes the SurfTech boards; they are still a foam sandwich construction - and if they are just as thin all you have is an expensive, brittle surfboard. That is why the pop-out market has not, historically, pursued the modern, thin high-performance surfboard as diligently as they have the oversize models. I have read where SurfTech claims to be coming out with a shortboard model that is 2” thick. In spite of the durability hype I have to say that a 2” thick board is fundamentally structurally unsound no matter what it is made of.
There is a reason for this. In a large, oversized board (like a sailboard) there is a much higher core-to-skin ratio than there would be with a shorter, thinner board. With a big thick board you can afford to use a superlight, weak core (such as polystyrene bead foam) because the weight you add in strengthening the board with more layers of glass will be offset by the sheer size of the thing. In addition, the thickness of such a board spreads the distance between the top and bottom skins apart, which, if you will remember, is the primary source of (tensile & shear) strength in the foam sandwich construction. In short, the oversized board can afford the lighter and weaker core due to its size and thickness. Scaled down, though, a much shorter and thinner board (whether a Slater model - 2.15” thick - or one of my hybrids) will have a greatly reduced core-to-skin ratio; the surface area of the skin is not reduced nearly as much as the volume of foam - and you’ve lost the main component of strength, once again, its thickness (the spacing apart of the two skins).
What this means is that in these shorter, thinner high performance boards the foam core must have enough integrity to help support the various loads placed on the board. There just simply is not enough foam in these types of surfboards to justify using a core as inherently weak as polystyrene bead-foam. You can reinforce it with more glass or exotic resins or even a sheath of high-density foam but, due to its limited thickness, all you will have is the above-mentioned expensive and brittle surfboard.
All surfboards must flex. From an engineering standpoint, this is how the board sheds some of the load placed on it. Again, look at the wing of a plane in flight - it flexes. However, as with a surfboard, if the wing flexes too much it will fail structurally, and if it is too stiff if will snap when subjected to a heavy load.
With surfboards it is even trickier.
There is always trouble when bonding a stiff skin to a more flexible core. If you could watch, in frame-by-frame slow motion, a surfboard being bent or twisted to the breaking point you would see the bond fail between the core and skin just before it snaps in two. On the compression side of the board the skin will buckle off the foam, the I-beam strength of the skins being cemented over the stringer is lost, and the board is dead whether or not it manages to remain in one piece.
That is foam sandwich engineering law # 2: Thickness of the core may be everything, but the bond of the skin to that core gives the sandwich much of its integrity.
And here is the bad news for the Polystyrene Protestants who want to nail their protests onto the cathedral doors of the Holy Roman Emperor Gordon Clark: Polystyrene (especially the standard bead-foam variety) is a terrible core for most surfboards.
Why?
It is fundamentally weak. Yet some shapers are so seduced by its lighter weight that they will go to their graves ignoring this fact.
Polystyrene foams have terrible bonding properties, especially the bead-foam varieties. Finish it off too smooth and it will offer little skin adhesion when glassed. Finish it off too rough and it will soak up too much resin. It’s not easy to find a good middle ground. Vacuum bagging lamination helps, but there will still be problems lurking beneath the surface that will eventually come back to haunt you.
Polystyrenes are no fun to shape. Believe me, I know. I’ve used most of the various types of these foams. I don’t care what anyone says, there is no way that you can hand shape as detailed, exacting and fine-lined a surfboard with polystyrene as you can with a polyurethane blank. No one cares about this fact because most of the major manufacturers we are discussing either use molds or shaping machines to produce their cores. Yet, any manufacturer that needs to shape a prototype plug for these molds or shaping machines almost always make it out of standard polyurethane blanks, because they ‘tool’ better and allow a more detailed, exacting shape.
Polystyrene/Styrofoam soaks up water. Like a sponge. When you get a ding you have to leave the water immediately and hang the board up like a hooked billfish so that the water with drain out. This is something the SurfTech literature fails to address. Some of the Polystyrene Protestants will claim that they are using denser, altered polystyrenes that soak up less water. These “extruded” foams are indeed far more watertight. What they fail to mention is that in order for these foams to achieve this they have had to mimic properties of a regular polyurethane Clark Foam blank. So why not just use a polyurethane blank in the first place?
Every reasonable and sane board builder since Bob Simmons that has experimented with polystyrene foams has eventually rejected them. Myself included. I shaped quite a few of them, sampling most of the varieties available, and finally rejected them for all uses (except for paddleboards). No matter what you do, or how you tweak the manufacturing process, these foams have inherent, crippling problems when used as a core for most common surfboards. …And those problems will always be waiting for you in the end.
One ‘deathwatch beetle’ of any surfboard with a molded, polystyrene bead-foam core is a little-understood stress we can call “thermal fatigue.” This seems to most affect those boards with a bead-foam core - I don’t care if it’s skinned with the most state-of-the-art vacuum bagged/epoxy technology. These boards have a long history of unpredictable expansion and resultant delamination.
Thermal fatigue involves the eventual delamination of the skin to the core due to repeated heating and then cooling of the board. These types of surfboards are so vacuum-sealed that they do not tolerate thermal ranges well. The ‘oil canning’, or expansion and contraction, of this airtight core of foam and air will often promote weakening, bubbling and then eventual delamination of the skin from the core. (Remember that bead-foam boards have always had bond problems to begin with.) Often, a small bubble will appear, and after that delamination spreads like a run in a stocking. Most polystyrene-core and/or molded boards in the past have experienced these structural problems. This is just an opinion - an educated guess - but I’d say that many of these SurfTech boards will fall prey to this syndrome. It may take longer than past models, but it will most likely happen sooner or later - it just depends on how many ‘fatigue cycles’ of hot-cold-hot-cold each individual board has to endure and, of course, how well each surfer takes care of his or her board.
This is why I believe that the best material for hand shaping and designing most surfboards in the design catalog is the polyurethane blanks such as those I purchase from Clark Foam.
The problem is not that traditional materials are inferior; they are most definitely not so. Rather, it is that these materials are not used to their best advantage. Clark Foam cannot control the quality of their product once it leaves the factory (they offer volumes of literature on the technical aspects of surfboard construction, but it is largely ignored). Too many board builders take the low road, usually because the bigger you are the more incentive there is to cut corners. Garden-variety ignorance or indifference is also to blame.
Once again, I remind you that I have always felt that the highest quality boards are made by the small-to-medium sized manufacturers that take a lot of custom orders. There are many of these builders out there - they are just not hyped by the surf media.
Most strength/quality problems faced by the manufacturer of polyurethane/polyester boards could mostly be countered by choosing a different blank density and stringer, and combining them with higher quality (and more expensive) cloths and resins. Clark Foam offers eight foam densities, each with their own strength-to-weight ratios, yet most in the industry ignore their various applications. The salient feature is “ultralight,” and in the spiraling ‘lightweight arms race’ manufacturers keep dropping foam density and glass - as well as promoting faster ‘dry’ lay-ups that make for lighter laminations but far weaker boards. In addition, there are some common polyester resins that offer superb strength, yet these are also ignored because they aren’t crystal-clear, or are more difficult to work with.
Many people get confused when talking about cloths and resins. If you aren’t sure what they are, how they combine, and what each is designed for, then I suggest it is time to do some serious research.
One cannot just go around screaming “Epoxy! Epoxy!” as if they are some type of miracle potion. (Remember, all our surfboard materials, neoprene, wax, (etc.) come out of the same oil well.) These plastics are just another type of thermosetting resin - not a magical type of fiberglass or core, or even a brand name. For many, “epoxy” remains merely a buzzword, like “composite” or “rack and pinion steering” or “digital.” Two cores being identical, the one glassed with epoxy resin but with a standard low-end grade cloth will be weaker than one glassed with the cheapest polyester casting resin used with a superior cloth like a 4.5 oz. flat-weave S-cloth.
Epoxy has its optimum applications, as does any other resin, but unless you really know what you are doing and how to handle it you are asking for serious, and I mean serious, trouble. (Mr. George’s claim that Tom Blake would ride a SurfTech board, aside from being self-serving jingoistic tripe, is not borne out by fact; Blake discarded the use of epoxies early on due to health concerns. I cannot imagine this wonderful and humane individual allowing people in a developing country bear the brunt for him.).
Furthermore, once again, as a final over-riding caveat I must remind you that once a surfboard dips under a certain thickness, say 2.65” for a standard modern longboard and 2.5” for a typical shortboard, then all bets are off. At that point the board will last only as long as the rider manages to avoid doing stupid things (and boy, are there a lot of stupid things going on out there!). And this goes for any type of material: I don’t care if you can somehow bond 1/8” sheets of military-grade titanium to the strongest foam core in the world, all you will have is an expensive, brittle board that will inevitably fail under load, lose the bond between skin and core, and then buckle and snap.
As a sidebar to the above, I remember being told by one Polystyrene/epoxy Protestant that because of his work in trying to determine what the best materials for making surfboards were, he knew more about what breaks a board than anyone in the world. He arrived at this unsupportable conclusion because he had an assistant put dozens of two-foot by four-inch by two-inch beams of foam laid up with fiberglass under an industrial press. After examining the strain under which each beam broke, he proceeded to apply the data to support claims that such and such foam and glass were the strongest, even advertising the percentages that certain materials were supposed to be stronger than conventional boards.
Of course, this is ridiculous. Tests of that sort might be useful in pointing one in a vague direction, but they have no similarity to the real-world factors than come together in the impact zone to break a board - all you have done is show how those 2’ X 4” X 2” beams break in relation to one another. (In the field, you have to consider wildly irregular torsions and twisting, as well as those stresses put on the board from the leash, which anchors it to a submerged drogue, i.e., you the surfer) The dynamics are far too complex - in the field - to compare real surfboards at the end of a leash to an industrial press. That’s like examining cultured in vitro cancer cells in a petri dish as compared to a real in situ tumor. (Oh, and by the way, Clark Foam offered all their resources to this well-intentioned but misguided individual, even though any future success on his part would have created a direct competition between them.)
You state, Jeff, that “this generation seems less caught up with the ethical arguments that perhaps held up some of their fathers.” I am not quite sure what you are getting at here. I know of no such “ethical” barriers that have held back surfers from jumping the fence and riding any surfboard perceived as being superior. The only “ethics” that I can realistically name would not necessarily be flattering. Ethics? Such as that surfers are invariably skinflints when it comes to buying their equipment? (For thirty years I have been listening to the same shopworn whinging about how “surfboards are too expensive, man” - this from surfers who have no idea what goes into a surfboard) And they want to look ‘cool’? There’s the whole drive of the entire surf industry right there. All surfers care about being, or being perceived to be, ‘cool’. From single fins to twins to tri fins, nothing has been ‘cooler’ than getting a custom surfboard. Every surfer wants to brag that he can get into the shaping bay of an in-demand shaper. No surfer, then or now, wants to look like a kook when he walks down the beach. Nothing says ‘kook’ more than a ‘Kransco surfboard’.
You then proceed with the following: “We all know surfboard have been woefully archaic when compared with every other kind of plastics production (boats, planes, furniture, other consumer items), and it’s just taken the coming of a new generation of more open minded guys (or less caring) to allow Randy (SurfTech) to begin to get his percentage.” Jeff, nothing could be further from the truth. To begin with, all of our design advances have come from amazingly shoestring, trial-and-error tinkering by some very gifted surfer/shapers. There has never been anything like a real financial base for any sort of high-tech surfboard ‘skunkworks’, and yet we have always progressed as fast as surfers can imagine new ways to ride waves.
As far as materials are concerned, think again, my friend. Aircraft and surfboards are both greatly concerned with strength-to-weight ratios and flexural/fatigue properties, but no aircraft could ever get off the runway that has to bear the forces and stresses endured by the modern surfboard. (Look on the wing of a plane next time you are flying and you will see the “No Step” stencils on the wings where they meet the control surfaces.) Yet, I could fill a steamer trunk with old order sheets where the customer demanded their board be “Light, but Strong. Loose, but Fast, etc.” Yes, not only do we stomp all over our surfboards but they have to be light enough to perform well - and strong enough to be continually pitched into the churning force of breaking waves. If any aircraft had to meet the conflicting engineering and market demands that the surfboard must meet they would either never get off the ground, or would fall apart regularly.
I feel that even the worst-made surfboard fares amazingly well when you consider what are asked of them. Even a 737 can be undone by stress and fatigue on its materials. Ask those poor souls on the recent American Airlines flight how they liked that ‘space age’ composite/epoxy tail empennage that failed and sent them all to their doom. All materials, whether polyesters or the most advanced aluminum alloys, have to deal with stress and fatigue and simply cannot be pushed far beyond their tolerances or there will be failure.
Why do so many boards break today? As you have read, they have gotten too thin to have the structural integrity that a good foam sandwich construction should have - but don’t forget that they have also become lighter, too, commonly using materials that fifteen or so years ago were almost exclusively used on team or pro models. There is also the widely overlooked factor of how modern performance surfing affects breakage. The last decade has seen a new type of surfing emerge, where riders consistently land on their boards after attempting such modern maneuvers as floaters, aerials, ‘chop-hops’, etc. This is the first time that surfboards have had to perpetually endure such stresses, and this factor intersects with the aforementioned trends of lighter, thinner and weaker surfboards. This is also the first time in history that the hottest surfers put more day-to-day strain on their equipment than the average kook. Think about it. (This applies to the SurfTech boards, as well. Though their ads go the brink of claiming they are indestructible, I can’t help but want to mention that a well-respected lifeguard I know told me that he saw three SurfTech boards break in one day last summer at Yokohama’s.)
Your allusion to boats and furniture, on the other hand, I have to dismiss categorically; they cannot realistically be compared to surfboards and aircraft. For boats there are entirely different design issues and strength-to-weight considerations and, as far as I know, no Barca-Lounger has ever had to survive a trip over the falls at Pipeline.
Now, looking at some of the statements made by Mr. George in his letter to you, I must admit to some misgivings about continuing further. Obviously, Mr. George knows very little about surfboards. Where does one begin to unravel this mess? As editor of SURFER Magazine, one would think that he would have absorbed at least a working knowledge about the design and construction of surfboards. However, it appears that a knowledge of surfing trivia is no substitute for a solid technical background. I am compelled to go on record as saying that, as far as surfboard information is concerned, both Mr. George and his fellow SURFER editor, Chris Mauro, are the two most prominent Ministers Of Misinformation ever enthroned at a surfing publication. Both are all the more dangerous because they truly believe they know what they are talking about.
The uninformed are uninforming the uninformed.
Mr. George looks before he leaps when he states that Clark Foam’s molded, close-tolerance blanks are essentially molded boards. This is clearly a case of the old adage, “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.” Yes, all the polyurethane blanks made by Clark Foam are indeed “factory molded.” Every polyurethane blank ever produced has been molded. You’ve got to pour the resin into something. What is the point? Are we to take this warping of semantics as a way to rationalize the undermining of the traditional custom surfboard industry with pop-outs produced offshore in the Third World?
If Mr. George had even the slightest practical knowledge of surfboard manufacturing he would know that the close-tolerance series of Clark Foam blanks were developed in order to make stronger - and lighter - surfboards. These close-to-shape blanks allow the conscientious shaper a chance to take less of the denser, stronger foam from a blank, thus improving the quality of surfboards even if the glassing is substandard. Furthermore, there is less wasted time and material (and allows for a less expensive blank). This series of plugs offers the best strength-to-weight ratio of any foam core in history - probably including balsa, as well. Once again, the product and the technology are there, but the average builder pretty much ignores it. If a shaper/glasser was paying attention, it was now possible to use a lighter, lower density blank AND glass it with lighter - or less - cloth. …Yet, the result would still be a lighter, stronger surfboard. Once again, Clark Foam has provided the solution and shored up the industry standards for all the shoddy glassers and chronic over-shapers. So much for “inferior Clark technology.”…
What Mr. George fails to note is that for each of the close-tolerance blanks (there are dozens of various plugs in the catalog) there may be twenty or thirty different rockers available, not to mention the fifty or so ‘secret’ customer rockers that are kept on file. Thus, each blank is bent and glued into an endless assortment of customized bottom curves, with a wide variety of stringer woods and thicknesses.
For example, the 6’7”R blank - a workhorse of the industry - has nearly 60 stock rockers available, and over 150 proprietary customer rockers. In addition to these, any customer can send in his own original rocker template. To properly utilize these blanks, the shaper has to design much of the board at the ordering stage, well before he ever takes a saw to the blank. This means that the modern shaper working with this system has to be more aware of design components and tolerances than ever before. Used properly, it can ensure that surfboards can be faithfully replicated from board to board, without the need for elaborate rocker templates or shaping jigs.
Many of these blanks can be altered in off-label ways that allow a progressive shaper - if he knows his stuff - the opportunity to build new designs without over-shaping and thus weakening the finished board. The end result is that there are more design opportunities than ever, and also that the efficient shaper can build stronger yet lighter boards - and with more board-to-board consistency and less wasted time and foam.
So, no, we don’t “all ride molded boards.” Some of us ride highly tuned custom boards built from the ground up, and working within tolerances as subtle as 1/32” in rocker, thickness, foil and outline.
Mr. George errs - once again - when he writes, “these blanks are then sent to manufacturers, an ever-growing number of whom (sic) use computer shaping machines to mill them. This includes every one of the major manufacturers.” Once again, this shows an utter lack of practical experience in these matters. Most shaping machines simply cannot use the close-tolerance line of blanks for the obvious reason that the computer controlled router and the bed that the blank is clamped into needs wider margins than these blanks allow. So they rely mostly on the thicker, more oversized blanks. This is why these machines have a reputation for over-shaping and putting out weaker boards (as the blanks have softer foam towards the center). Attempts have been made by one major computer shaping service to deal with this problem, and has instituted a more exacting system of deck rocker profiling that lets them use some of the moderately close-tolerance blanks - but they can never better the efforts of the conscientious hand shaper that skims just the crust off the deck by hand (The less foam planed off the deck the more resistant the finished, glassed board will be to compression dents and dings).
Then there is the following preposterous statement: Mr. George says that these factory molded blanks are “produced in a factory in Mission Viejo (sic: actually, Laguna Niguel) by non surfing, non English speaking (Third World, you might say) workers.” Am I to understand that people of Mexican heritage are only to be allowed to make tortillas or cut your lawn, Mr. George?
Let me tell you about this “Third World” workforce at Clark Foam. All of them are legal residents. Many of them are making a commitment to become naturalized American citizens. Many are bi-lingual. They are hard working, family-oriented and reliable employees. That is what America is all about, lest you forget. Immigrants in this country have always formed the backbone of what we like to call “American values” or “the American Dream”. Did your ancestors speak English when they came from Italy, Germany, Sweden or Africa? Those guys working in the Clark Foam factory are more American and have more “American values” than some Lilies of the Field “BoBo” (Bourgeois Bohemian) with pasty-white hands never once splotched with a blister from an honest day’s work.
Almost every hands-on position at the Clark Foam factory requires a highly trained worker, whether it’s in the wood shop milling rockers or on the floor batching and pouring resin into the molds. Some of these people - who have never surfed - have come up with technical advances that have improved the strength, quality and accurate repeatability of the surfboards we are all riding.
And let me add that those “non surfing, non English speaking workers” put their hands onto and produce the majority of America’s surfboard foam, therefore making them, in my estimation, far more valuable to the surfing community than a glorified ad copywriter that hacks up narcissistic hairballs for some surfing comic book.
The following is a statement so utterly absurd it is difficult to even unravel it for discussion: “I went through this same thing when I rode John Bradbury’s boards,” writes Mr. George, “and no more soulful shaper ever existed, John experimented with new materials because he loved surfboards and was tired of seeing them fall apart due to the limitations of Clark technology. Who are any of us to impune (sic) him?”
Well, I certainly wouldn’t want to ‘impugn’ the late Mr. Bradbury, who was indeed a ‘soulful’ and lovely individual. Yet, I am certain that he would not make the same claims as would a magazine copywriter prone to hyperbole. Mr. Bradbury was a pretty good shaper, but his ‘experimentation’ with ‘new materials’ was most definitely nothing revolutionary - or even new, as we have discussed earlier.
Anyone that thinks that stringerless, lightweight bead-foam Styrofoam (as used by Mr. Bradbury) is a good core for a modern, thin surfboard is digging in the wrong place. Having ridden a few of those same boards - as well as many of the very same boards that Mr. George owned - I can say with out a doubt that they were structurally unsound. As anecdotal evidence, I need only remind Mr. George to recall how many of those Bradbury boards he broke on various surf trips. For example, there were a few surfaris to Isla Natividad and Jeffrey’s Bay where he broke his entire Bradbury quiver in a very short time, while I rode my ‘inferior Clark technology’ boards (Superblue or Ultralight density, 3-step 4oz. deck, single 4 oz. bottom, sanded hotcoat, often glassed overnight by Greg Mungall) to my supreme satisfaction. I might add that many of those boards are still in good shape, ten or fifteen years later, and stored away under my house. Where are Mr. George’s ‘cutting edge’ boards from those trips? He could only reply that they are moldering alongside the lobster shells and fish heads on Natividad, or buried deep in some antipodean rubbish tip near Humansdorp, South Africa.
Earlier I mentioned that one must possess a good understanding of epoxy resins or you risk serious trouble. Mr. George’s lack of understanding in this area cost him only a number of broken boards. Although it is mere speculation, I had always wondered whether John Bradbury’s failure to acknowledge these concerns might have contributed to the illness that brought about his untimely passing. Epoxy resins are not to be trifled with - many of them are very, very toxic - and based on personal appraisal of Mr. Bradbury’s workplace hygiene I can say without reservation that he was ‘working without a net’. (Again, see the addenda at the end of this letter)
Mr. George might also want to explain why, if Mr. Bradbury was so disgusted with ‘inferior Clark Foam technology’, he was a steady customer of Clark Foam (as is Clyde Beatty, presently) in his final years. Perhaps he was one of those ‘blackmailed’ into using such regressive materials?….
In answering the following statement it is again necessary to tread on some toes. Mr. George raises the issue of certain master shapers and their inalienable right to profit from their years of ‘dedication’ to the craft of surfboard construction. Who are we, he asks, to tell them they can’t ‘reproduce their best work’ and receive steady royalty checks. He mentions such shaping legends as Rennie Yater and Mickey Munoz, and asks “are we to tell them that their lifetime of commitment means nothing, and that they are only good for production piecework, as shaping drones, endlessly cutting rocker into foam?” He then goes on to write, “I don’t support efforts like SurfTech’s unequivocably (sic), but as a step in the right direction: the search for better materials and better manufacturing for those surfers who cherish the form. And to honor the master shapers - their vision, their dedication, their commitment. You don’t think they deserve it?”
These gentlemen named - and others who shape plugs for the SurfTech molds - may well be master shapers and worthy of our respect. By all means, let’s have banquets for them, erect bronze busts of them in their hometowns, read lengthy biographies about them in the surf magazines - but I am not so sure I want them designing my surfboards.
Why not?
For the simple reason that many of these guys may well be superb craftsmen and venerable foamsmiths, but are not exactly what forward-looking surfers would call ‘contemporary surfboard designers’. Past contributions made by these gentlemen to the surfboard family tree have certainly been noteworthy and valuable. …Yet, I feel compelled to mention that ‘past contributions’ normally do little to advance surfboard design in the ‘future’, which is where most of us will be doing a lot of our surfing.
Many of these shapers have added little or nothing to the design kingdom in decades. I guess what I am prodding at here is a truth that must be faced: while the garden-variety longboard is certainly a popular type of surfboard and is here to stay whether we like it or not, it hardly represents the cutting edge of the progressive design spearhead.
I am sorry. Racecars are built around the accelerator pedal, not the brakes. I like to go fast, and fast surfboards have flat bottoms and hard edges. In my opinion, the modern longboard had a chance to lead surfing back into a progressive mode, but we stumbled at the fork in the road and headed down the regressive path into Nostalgia World. Thus, these modern replicas of stodgy old tubs have lost the right to be included in the Great Leap Forward of modern surfboard/hybrid design.
Mr. George writes: “You gonna tell Yater to get the hell back to work and lock himself in the shaping room for another 50 years? You know what he got for shaping the Clark plug that virtually all modern longboards over 9’2” are shaped from? Five free blanks on account.” This rhetorical query shows Mr. George to have little actual knowledge of how things work in the surfboard industry. The main error here is the idea that Yater, or any other shaper who builds a new plug for Clark Foam, does it for free and then gets short shrift. First, being invited to build a plug is tantamount to being included in a shaper’s Hall of Fame - it is liked being granted admission into an exclusive society like aviation’s “Quiet Birdmen.” Do you have any idea how difficult and exacting the plug-building process is, and how many plugs are rejected by Clark Foam? Would you like to know how many so-called ‘master shapers’ are unable to produce a usable plug?
Then there is the not inconsiderable convenience of having an infinite supply of blanks available to that selfsame plug designer that are built precisely along the lines of his shaping process and specifications. This is an enormous advantage and benefit to the commercial or production shaper. Being a plug shaper also gives one peer recognition and free exposure in the most widely read catalog in the surf industry. It is not about the ‘five free blanks on account’. Again, this is a subject best not meddled in by people who don’t get their hands dirty.
Furthermore, speaking of getting hands dirty, I feel that it is possible for one craftsman to tell a another that, yes, he should get the hell back to work. My view on this is severe, I admit, but I say that if a craftsman gets tired of getting up everyday and building something with his hands - be it lapstrake dories or surfboards - then he should do some soul searching as to whether or not he might want to look for another line of work. Don’t let your ennui scotch it for the rest of us.
To say that one sees “no real soul in the manufacturing” (as written by you, Jeff) shows that you are missing the point entirely. You of all people should know better! Can you honestly say that those neat little Hawkins 10.5’ boats you laid up in Rick Kluver’s barn had no more soul than a Boston Whaler bought at a boatyard in Bakersfield?
Working with your hands in the quiet of a little workshop is the very definition of soul - the craftsman’s/artisan’s soul at least - and I care little if that “soul” cannot be flaked, formed and molded for vicarious import to the masses. (And, by the way, inarguably the most prolific, profitable and, thus, ‘successful’ shaper working today is Phil Becker, - and he’s shaped each and every board by himself, by hand.)
When Mr. George speaks of these ‘master shapers’ having ‘vision’, ‘commitment’ or ‘dedication’ I assume he is referring to this alleged “search for better materials and better manufacturing.” That’s all very good, yet one must consider another vantage point. Again, let’s not confuse materials with design. As a surfboard designer and surfer interested in fast, high-performance boards (especially guns for large-framework waves) I must go on record as declaring that I care about a surfboard’s performance far more than I am concerned with its materials. (Note: I haven’t broken a surfboard since 1990) As I said earlier, traditional materials used conscientiously are good enough, and ‘good enough’ is fine by me, as my surfboard program is more or less focused on the day-to-day refining of performance components.
Ultimately, this continual refinement of surfboard design is what it is all about. As we discussed earlier, it is not necessarily in the interests of a large manufacturing concern such as SurfTech to make small shape/design refinements that improve performance. It is a matter of economics, really. For example, it is in my best interests to improve a surfboard design so that it rides better. In doing so I will draw more customers and make more money. I can react and make these changes literally overnight. But for a large-scale builder like SurfTech, making sudden design changes will - initially - cost them money; it is in their best interests to have less volatile, generic board designs that are unlikely to overnight sprout new control features like concaves, fluted wings or beveled rails.
So here, in short, is the problem: All large surfboard manufacturers, be they mold-o-maniacal or shaping machine-aholics, will end up in a parasitical relationship with the backyard surfer/shapers who dream up the original designs or fresh hybrids we will be riding tomorrow. Remember the unassailable truth that no large manufacturer has ever come up with a Quantum Leap, i.e. the mini-gun, the down rail, the Thruster, etc.
It is my contention that none of these big-time manufacturers could ever lead surfboard design. They can only follow. …And follow rather slowly at that. This is especially true where the modern high-performance shortboard or hybrid is concerned. Every time SurfTech has to have a new plug shaped and a new mold built, it will cost them time and money. Whereas for a shaper like myself, the more often that I can produce valid, demonstrable improvements in design, the larger my clientele and income will be almost immediately. Furthermore, it costs me nothing - better yet I can do it all in my backyard with little more machinery than a piece of Masonite and a Skil 100.
What will happen in the future if the traditional body of working shapers is reduced? By wiping out jobs for production shapers we are robbing our sport of future contributions that might have come from the next Rawson or Rusty, both of whom honed their skills by shaping thousands of production boards, and then perfected those same skills by working with large stables of world class surfers. With those jobs gone, the best that we can hope for is a generation of shapers that have spent the bulk of their careers whittling the router ruffles off of computer shapes, subbing for a ‘master shaper’ that has fallen out of love with shaping to such an extent that he will stoop to sign someone else’s work.
Since the classic surfer/shaper along the lines of a Brewer, a McTavish or a Fitzgerald are, apparently, a dying race we will have to rely on a future base of technically adept production shapers who have come up through the ranks after building their ten or fifteen thousand custom and stock boards. If those production jobs are not there for them, we risk the unthinkable: that our surfboards will be designed by proxy; by a company like SurfTech and a bunch of longboard-era ‘master shapers’ who might be hell on wheels with a Rockwell, but whose ideas on surfboards are twenty or thirty years out of date.
For example, can you imagine if, back in the ‘70s, Dick Brewer had built a shaping machine rather than share his knowledge with a stable of white-hot protégés? How limp and wilted our surfing lives would be today without the contributions made by Brewer-trained shapers such as Reno Abellira, Sam Hawk, Mark Richards, Tom Parrish, Gerry Lopez, et al. And yet this is exactly what is happening today, as shaping machines and offshore manufacturers take apprentice or production jobs away from surfers who might well have someday been the next Parrish or Richards.
So who will support the backyard builder, the surfer/shaper that stimulates new design excitement, the small outfit that services the local surfing community with high-quality custom boards? I’ll tell you who: Clark Foam. Yes, the Evil Monopoly of Foam Baron Gordon Clark; they offer unfailing support to any builder with the above-mentioned qualities.
The backyard revolution was arguably the most important tectonic shift ever to occur in modern surfing history. The very idea that an enthusiastic surfer could build, in a backyard shed or garage, a better riding board than any put out by the major manufacturers, is earth-shaking when you really consider it. Think about how fast things progressed from ’68 to ’74 - this advancement sure as hell didn’t come from the stick-in-the-mud majors.
The backyard shaper will never be quashed - in the past the bulk of all design innovation came from a garage or underneath a pier, and presently it is coming from places like Laird Hamilton’s Maui compound. Look at the difference in what you see coming out of Hamilton’s workshop compared to what you see in the racks at the “Longboard Grotto” or “Huntington Surf & Sport.”
Anything other than this sort of cutting-edge, surfer-elite-led progression is just mindless, lumbering overhead and a smokescreen of unsubstantiated claims made by cigar chomping ‘innovators’ who nurse the fads and fancies from high-rent industrial condos, sweaty-assed with fear that a backyard ‘skunkworks’ will lead the buying public away from their stockpiled inventory of aquatic Pintos and Pacers - and they won’t be able to make the payments on their bass boats, Range Rovers and golf course memberships.
As we near the conclusion of this lengthy discussion, it is time to look more closely at the very foundation of the SurfTech program. As you correctly deduced, Jeff, it is indeed a Third World/ Wal-Mart issue. But you are wrong when you say, “The Third World has kicked America’s ass with their manufacturing superiority in almost every other market…Hey, why should surfboards be any different?” Without delving into a long explanation about what the noun “economy” really means, I think I should point out that you might not understand the entirety of this Pandora’s Box issue posed by these Wal-Mart/Third World trends.
To briefly put it, the reason America has farmed out almost all of its manufacturing to the Third World lies not in any overseas “manufacturing superiority” - but rather for the simple reason that it is cheaper. And why is it cheaper? Because this country has developed such a high standard of living that all of the intricate web of laws and protections put in place to ensure that quality of life has, in the end, erected such an obstructionist breastwork against business and manufacturing that many corporations feel they have no choice but to move their factories out of the country. Again, this is because it is so cheap to make things in places where the workers have no unions and make perhaps $2.00 a day. It is cheap to make things when you have no pollution regulations. It is cheap to make things when people in a Third World country would rather be a ‘developing country’ than worry about their environment or its stewardship. They are grasping to own the things they see in the Western media, right? Why not lure them into screwing up their ecosystems like we have - it’s the ‘American Dream’ after all. Clear cutting the forests and indenturing workers into gluing up sneakers in place of their traditional rural lives is all worth it if there is the Promise they will someday drive the cars and eat the processed, packaged foods and wear the clothes they see on TV. That’s “progress”, right?
The surfboards made by SurfTech are built overseas for exactly these reasons. There is no “manufacturing superiority”. These SurfTech boards are fabricated in Thailand, at the (approximately) 2000-employee Cobra sailboard factory. (Most of the remaining molded/ epoxy surf, sail and wake boards on the market are manufactured in Slovakia) The skilled workers that get their hands dirty make approximately $3.50 a day, plus a free lunch. The factory compound is situated on 16-18 acres, of which about 300,000 square feet are under a roof. The bulk of the money most likely came from a World Bank loan through the Thai government. Can you honestly claim that you believe that this Nike-style Thailand sailboard factory has some technological skill that is superior to our capabilities in the U.S.? Of course not, the reason these boards are manufactured there is for the plain and simple reason that it is cheaper to do so there than it is here in America. Period.
Sure, you could build these labor-intensive molded boards in the U.S., but you’d have to eliminate all the laws and regulations that prevail here. You’d have to get rid of OSHA, the EPA, the labor unions, and all the various controls on emissions. You’d have to axe Workman’s Comp and health insurance, and all of the regulations that have made labor so expensive that it has become impractical for a competitive manufacturer to make anything other than hamburgers in this country. (For some reason, our country has settled on some sort of half-assed socialism where one’s employer is obligated to give its workers cradle-to-the-grave security, i.e. health insurance.)
Some might scoff at this and say, “what about all the glass shops in the U.S. that don’t control their emissions or obey the regulations?” Yes, there are many examples of such fly-by-night operations - but we are concerned at the moment with the comparably large manufacturers here. The Cobra plant in Thailand is a two-thousand-employee operation. In the U.S., it has become virtually impossible for any surfboard factory of even a tenth that size to fly beneath the radar; once the Fire Marshal knows about them they have to ‘toe the line’ and get up to code just as Clark Foam does. As far as California has been concerned, we all know what a witch hunt this has been.
Cobra is an enormous company that makes many plastics products, including many of the world’s lightweight sailboard brands. Once they receive the shaped plugs for their molds, Cobra builds 100% of the SurfTech board in Thailand. SurfTech itself actually manufactures nothing; they merely coordinate designs, promotions, and take the sales. Outside of the prototype plugs, nothing is manufactured in the United States. Cobra is reported to have sales that tally in at just under $100,000,000 a year. This would make them bigger than the entire American surfboard industry!
And don’t forget the Chinese-made surfboards popping up at Costco - they’re made in China with cheaper labor and materials for the same reasons. Sure, we too could formulate resins and yarns that are 50% cheaper if we paid our workers a Third World wage and ash-canned our environmental laws. Maybe our nation’s sense of environmental responsibility has been under whelming, but at least a sizeable chunk of the population pretend to care. The worst environmental degradations in history were committed by, first, the Soviet Union and, second, China in the past century under communist governments. If I ever see a surfer that has one of these Chinese Costco boards with a Surfrider Foundation decal on his car I’m gonna let the air out if his tires.
Now for the final salvo in this barrage.
Molded boards such as those being promoted by SurfTech have always had a reputation as ‘kook boards”. There is no need to resort to this kind of reactionary name-calling - yet, there is an argument that can be made that agrees with this idea, and it follows a ruthlessly logical path.
Let’s say that you have swallowed the ad campaigns and hype of the (so-called) ‘design’ columns in one of the magazines, and have purchased a new Cobra-built SurfTech board. It matters not whether it is a longboard or shortboard model. You ride it for a few months and enjoy the board. It works well for you, and does pretty much everything you ask for. … But, after a while, your skill increases or you begin to see things in the board that you could change for the better. If surfing occupies a central part of your life and you are committed to progressing - as good, experienced surfers do - then you will want to make design changes that will allow you to reach the next level. For the longboard, one may realize that he wants to, for example, thin out the tail and change the wide-point. The shortboard is more sensitive to refinements: the surfer may want to flatten the rocker slightly and change the apex of the vee panel to suit the fin setting he uses.
Now, not every good surfer can work with a shaper and contribute such clarity and exactness in his desires. But all experienced surfers do so to some extent. This I have found to be an irreducible truth. Some will merely ask for a thicker board, or softer rails. Other surfers that are more in tune may be able to request far subtler changes in tail rocker, hip placement and a myriad other dimensions. What they have in common is that they are all interested in progressing, are excited about their next custom board, and recognize that being involved in the design and construction of their surfboards is a vital part of their desire to progress. This is the heart and soul of the custom surfboard industry - and is one of the last truly neat things about surfing.
If this design process scares or intimidates a surfer, or he doesn’t develop the surfing skills that are necessary to forge ahead, he may just decide to wave at the passing parade from the sidewalk and say, “I can’t be bothered, my board is good enough. I really only surf on weekends, anyway.” Any surfer that is not interested in or serious about progressing is a “kook” in my estimation. It is that simple. Let the chips fall where they may, but it’s the truth. Good surfers always want to trade up to a better riding board - the better a surfer is, the faster and more eagerly he attacks the refinement process.
I say this to all those surfers who - for whatever reason - applaud the ideology of the molded pop-out board a’la SurfTech/ Cobra: If you have somehow lost the thread of progressive surfboard design in your middle years, fine, go ahead and ride one of those Hasbro surfcraft - it’ll look nifty in your garage next to your other emblems of faltering commitment gathering dust there, such as your Tupperware kayak and Chinese-made mountain bike. However, for God’s sake, do not in your pathetic malaise be a Chicken Little screeching about the “falling sky.” Don’t whisper sotto voce falsehoods while screeching out cheers from the armchair for “progress” when you do not know what you are talking about.
All you good and experienced surfers out there who are trapped on a stamped-out, look-alike surfboard that is someone else’s idea of what a good board is, I offer you this: Once you have decided that you would surf better with some design changes you will want to take your spiffy pop-out board to a custom shaper and ask for, say, less rocker or a wider tail.
However, if the doors are chained up and the shaper is now cleaning pools for a living or there is a Starbuck’s where the shop used to be - well, you’ll know who to blame. …And you can go down to the docks and sit there to wait for the container ship to bring you - on the slow boat from China - a business man’s idea of the “hot new” model you will soon be riding.
Jeff, it is your duty as a surfing statesman to take this information and endeavor to educate all those who look to you for guidance.
Sincerely, Your Friend,
Dave Parmenter
(see Addenda below)
ADDENDA
We’re not quite through yet. Although the “PC-Green” aspects of today’s surfboards weren’t discussed in depth in your forwarded letters, I felt that I should include some of the facts, since this area fosters some of the most pervasive of all the myths surrounding the construction of surfboards.
·All modern surfboards are petrochemical based. This includes epoxy resins and “bamboo” surfboards. Epoxies are not some kind of groovy, non-toxic and ‘hemp-like’ alternative to other materials. Nobody uses a veggie-based epoxy - there is no such thing. All surfboard materials come out of the same oil well. “Bamboo surfboards” are no different; the bamboo veneers used on these boards are just a skin - they still comprise a foam sandwich surfboard fiberglassed with petrochemical plastics. Sorry, Woody Harrelson could not ride one with a clear conscience….
·Some epoxy facts: when talking about epoxy resins we have to break them down into two separate components, the hardener and the epoxy molecules themselves. Some hardeners are extremely toxic, while others are not. The main problem is that the epoxy molecule is very toxic to the human body. People working with it can become “sensitized” to these resins. Irritations and rashes can form both inside and outside the body when a worker gets near the resin, and they often grow worse with repeated exposure. Toluene diisocyanates (TDIs) do much the same thing (see SurfTech spray item below). At the SurfTech factory in Thailand, it is reported that when workers become “sensitized” they are moved to another department. As with polyesters, these problems can largely be avoided with proper protection and rigorous industrial hygiene. Historically, epoxies have caused more health problems than polyesters except in cases where styrene levels were extraordinarily high. In my personal experience - and I stress that this is anecdotal evidence only - the only people that I have ever seen become ill from working around surfboards were those that handled a lot of epoxy resins.
·The thin layer of rigid skin foam bonded to the bead-foam core in the SurfTech epoxy boards is a PVC foam. Greenpeace wants PVC to be totally outlawed.
·Styrene is used in polyesters and evaporates as a fume. Styrene is regulated by OSHA, and is permissible if levels stay under the legal limit. Clark Foam has been tested repeatedly and has been okayed repeatedly. The rest of the surfboard industry probably operates outside these OSHA-set limits. Most of the really professional workers use respirators that are probably not OSHA-legal, but offer enough protection to be safe.
·Another chemical widely used in surfboard manufacture is acetone. There has been a lot of finger pointing regarding this toxic solvent over the past couple of decades, especially directed at glassers that don’t keep their acetone bins covered. Yet, OSHA has recently taken acetone off its “toxic” list, and has become a fire hazard issue only.
·Sanding of fiberglass poses a severe health risk if done without the proper respirator and ventilation. Some reports indicate that the Asian factories do not have these controls. “It can only go in - it can’t come out.” Your lungs talking about micro-fibers here….
·Let’s examine some of the blowing agents used in expanded foams. Some use fluorocarbons or freons. Others claiming to use “ozone-friendly” use alternatives to CFC agents, yet these are just as nasty and are now coming under suspicion of being bad actors in ozone depletion. In China, Thailand and Slovakia there are no controls. Clark Foam uses relatively harmless carbon dioxide as a blowing agent.
·The Cobra factory in Thailand probably recycles their bead-foam scrap. Other polystyrene board builders most likely send their cuttings to the landfill, as do polyurethane builders. “Green”-slanted ad campaigns touting certain polystyrene manufacturers that recycle their scrap foam fail to mention that the oil consumption and pollution engendered by the pick-up and transportation of said waste would be far worse than just throwing the cuttings away. The supply/pick-up lines are too long and few builders generate enough scrap by themselves to allow their “Green” claims to hold water. Many of the boards I shape from Clark Foam’s close-tolerance line of blanks would generate barely enough waste to fill a two-gallon bucket, after the side cuttings are broken up. I also use 75% of my rail cuttings as a primary packing material when shipping finished surfboards.
·Over the years, I have read many breathless articles written by surf mag editors trying to mimic “The Jungle,” by Upton Sinclair. Clark Foam is always depicted as being a toxic Mordor. However, has anyone examined their record? I have. It is a matter of public record. They are highly regulated. They produce no hazardous waste. The factory releases approximately 50 pounds of TDIs (toluene diisocyanates) into the air per year. (The upper-middle class townhouse owners that have moved into the area over the past 30 years comprise a formidable lobby in local politics. They would have had the plant shut down a long time ago if it were at all possible. Think about it.) Isocyanate fumes quickly convert into an inert urea. Much of the foam-bucket waste (after pouring the resin into the molds) is given to florists who then use the foam in floral arrangements. The mold release paper that is not re-used as packaging is recycled. Clark Foam uses no toxic solvents, and instead uses water-based cleaners to clean their brushes, which are of the same type as you use in your home. The biggest source of waste is their wood scrap: it could potentially be recycled, but they haven’t as of yet found a method that works with the size of their factory.
The two biggest issues at the highly regulated Clark Foam factory are the emission of styrene and isocyanate fumes. The levels of styrene fumes have been tested and are lower than the limits set by the federal government. For isocyanates the factory uses live-air breathers, which are OSHA-approved. In the United States there are about 1 billion pounds of isocynates (TDIs) released into the atmosphere each year. Clark Foam, if you recall, emits perhaps 50 pounds of this. This means that your car has far more TDIs associated with it than your surfboard.
*There have been allegations that surfboard foam releases toxic gases when shaped. This is bunk. Polyurethane foams are fully reacted polymers that emit no fumes after curing. The dust and shavings are considered by OSHA to be inert and a “nuisance dust.” The main concerns are ventilation and eye protection. As with any fine dust, a proper respirator should be worn whenever handling the foam. The one that I use, which is overkill according to OSHA standards, is manufactured by 3M and costs less than $40. The foam dust waste is not federally regulated, but most local ordinances demand that it is double-bagged in durable plastic trash bags before being discarded.
·More on isocyanates: The finish on the Cobra/SurfTech boards consists of a two-part urethane spray. This finish is a concentrated, atomized isocyanate. This means that just the finish coat on one of these boards is nastier and more fume producing than all of the entire polyester/polyurethane manufacturing processes put together. It is possible that Cobra uses state-of-the-art scrubbers and filters to manage these fumes, but everyone that I have spoken with who has visited the factory had said that they had zero controls. What is the truth? Or should we not care because they are Third World workers?
·The bottom line is that you are trading away a tradition of small, local business for big, offshore business. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want my surfboard to be made like an athletic shoe or a Hula Hoop. In the last decade or so surfing has been under siege from some pretty scary, intersecting trends. With all the commercialism and heritage-plundering now prevalent throughout our beloved lifestyle, I want to embrace all the more one of the last really neat and unique things about surfing: the custom surfboard industry. Don’t believe what the ads and the magazine hype tell you. The truth is there - you just have to dig for it.
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Once of the most interesting words that i've read "lately".
I've printed the text to show it to some friends...
THANKS for this contribution.
Coque.
www.worldprosurfers.com
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
well i got nothing out of that except the rantings of a pu/pe manufacturer who feels threatened by moulded epoxy boards ...
while i did agree with plenty of daves sentiments in regard to the damage done to the industry by cheap imported boards ,,, i had to strongly disagree with his anti , epoxy , polystyrene , pvc , / whatever styles of boards he was putting down propaganda ...
daves own comments were rife with misinformation and anecdotal comments ...
if dave wants to put his opinions where his mouth is ,,, then i would gladly invite dave parmenter to put one of his refined custom built pu/pe boards built by a surfer shaper ,,, up against one of my refined custom built epoxy sandwich polystyrene cored vacumn bagged composite boards built by a surfer shaper ...
we can give them both to an independant body , say a university ,,, they can do all the tests as to which one has better shear strengths , impact strengths , tensile , flexural , and compression strengths ...
and while dave can go collect the pu/pe fragments i will go get mine back and keep surfing it ...
yes the future of design and innovation is in the hands of the custom board builder .. that i do agree with ...
but dave is off the planet if he thinks new innovation is tied up with an outdated technology ...
all the negative aspects dave brought up about epoxy , polystyrene , pvc , timber and so on ,, was either false or a perfectly solvable problem that obviously he hadnt worked out when dealing with the materials ...
i can hardly see the small operator being forced to clean pools when the demand for a custom board made from durable new tech materials and techniques is so strong ...
my boards start at 1000.00 ,,, a thousand dollars !!!! and people are lined up for a year to get one ...
show me one p/u p/e builder where someone would wait that long for one ???
the only reason crew are buying surftechs in droves is because they are stronger and lighter ,, they would much rather get a custom sandwich , but cant ...
but they still choose a moulded board over a custom p/u p/e ...
those rantings were the clearest yet that point to the emergence of custom sandwich as the biggest and best chance for our surfing culture and industry to survive ...
if anyone else wants to put up a polyester board for testing im all for it ...
long live the custom board builder ,,, the backbone of innovation ...
but being a custom board builder doesnt mean we have to stick with outdated techniques ....
regards
BERT
Taking orders again ...
Contact details updated ...
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Well Done Dave Parmenter! Sure does throw a wet blanket on the molded (and custom) EPS/XPS & epoxy school of boardbuilding.
What other shapers/marques fall into the progressive shapes/well-built surfboard camp in addition to DP and Laird Hamilton?
Again - a great post!
John
Re: [Bert_Burger] you should all read this if you care about cus
Intersting read, but it could have been reduced to a much shorter, concise essay, so the average concerned person would not get lost along it's overly repetitive, informative and self-defensive way.
Bert, you fall under his category of custom boardmaker making breakthroughs. Your techniques are doing what the forward thinkers want. And it's clear by your product and order backlog that you are moving forward, with the customer demand obviously wanting quality despite the cost. Don't take the above letter too personally for he knows not all.
When the first foam fibreglass boards were made they were ahead of their time and they have sustained until now, and will continue to do so, because of their engineering properties, cost and practicality.
I haven't made a board in a while, and I've no idea whether I will in the future or not. If I do I will be using all the knowledge I have learned over the years, and no matter what materials I make it out of, I will still want make the best board I can.
The author rightfully defends himself and his boardmaking ideals, and I respect that. I hope he knows that his letter, not addressed to the public, is now being read by the public.
Greg
Re: [Wildy] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Entertaining read....I dont know wheather to laugh or cry. So many inconsistencies....so biased. As a garage shaper/builder, before I discovered Swaylocks, I've gained a good amount of valuable information from DPs writtings....years ago a Surfboard Anatomy was my bible for quite a while. I appreciate his contributions.
Now after seeing what is possible from all the fantastic contributions here I have to opine that DP is biased and wrong in so many ways is rediculous. Can't get a smooth shape with EPS? Are u kidding man?!
I went surfing this morning, pull up to the beach and see a small group of strangers bobbing around on this phat mushy peak hardly anyone getting a ride. Knowing what I know, I look 200 meters to the north and see this nice left breaking semi-hard from the outside all the way to the inside with no one on it. So I calmly jog up and have an epic little session by myself and a manatee (yes thats a seacow)....nice fast headhigh lefts all to myself. I look down the beach and there's that small group of strangers trying to surf crappy mush.
The moral: there's a prominent herd mentality out there..."this guy's surfing this peak so it must be good". After reading DPs entertaining editorial rant, I gotta say he's just another herder, a follower, with talent for well articulated but severely biased surfboard construction editorials. Once again Bert nailed it.
Dave, wake up its the 00's....
onward.....
_________________________________________________
I've come to the conclusion that surfers dont make good husbands, and women dont make good wives.
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
I have to agree with Bert.
I love Dave's boards, I own five of them (2-9'0"s, 2-7'0"s and a 7'4") and would buy more if I found the right one. His stuff is always reasonable priced, paddles well and just works for an old fart surfer like me.
All the west side folks love Dave as well. He's one of the few shapers I would buy off the shelf no questions asked. His vector, malolo and new fish designs are light years ahead of the pack.
Unfortunately the problem is the glass jobs on his boards, at least the ones I bought from Hale Nalu and BK West absolutely suck. Bump it the wrong way against your car or when you place it down on the ground and voila another new ding to worry about. Kind of makes having a great board useless when you patching it all the time.
Now I've accidently dropped my epoxy surftech when showering, had them fly off my racks or car hood on a windy day with absolutely no damage. I can't say that for 90% of the polys I own with the exception of George Ku's boards. But then again George has always built his boards extra tough for the Northshore with double and triple 6 and no gloss to save weight. The majority of the other board makers never do this.
Like I said as with all the other "westsiders" I love Dave's craftmanship, but I also see Grant, Buffalo and a bunch of other DP loyalists riding Surftech longboards instead Parmenters.
Maybe it's like flatware..
You only bust out the fine china and silverware for those special occasions but use the microwave dishwasher safe stuff on a day to day basis.
I'll be reading his latest disertation this weekend to try and absorb the mana'o but it printed out at 18 pages even in 10 point font.. Geez the dude can write.. Why doesn't he just publish a novel or something for us to kepp for posterity.
Again I'm in Bert's corner regarding longevity of a woodlammed epoxy sandwich performance vehicles but you have to give a nod to Dave's wisdom on the whole scheme of things as he sees it.
God I miss Rell..
Wonder what she would say to Dave about it all..
Live Aloha Always...
What is it?
http://culturalkapolei.honadvblogs.com/2009/04/01/oneula-hau-bush/
Where is it?
http://www.inter-island.com/eva.html
Re: [meecrafty] you should all read this if you care about custo
Bert,
I don't believe DP is saying he is against Epoxy or popout tech. I think he is saying he is against the dishonest and anything for a buck mentality of Surftech and the like. The brainwashing done by Magazine advertisments and the hypocrisey of those who claim to love the earth and it's fellow human beings and then buy something (alot of things actually) that is made in countries who goverments could care less about their people and in the case of China and the like murder their own people. Meanwhile American businesses claim to care about their employees and their country as they sell both of them down the river.
I believe dealing with countries that murder their own people or enslave their own people is akin to being a murderer or robber baron yourself.
Of course we Americans and surfers have always been a litte selective when it comes to morality or what is right. It's all deemed situational.
Taking many of these agrarian cultures as in Thailand and putting them in factories with the offer of filthy lucre is the same type of thing that caused our own War Between the states. It's Progress vs laise faire.
Progress is both a slogan and a philosophy, a device for social control and a belief in the reality of a process of cosmic development toward, "some far - off devine event."
Lyle H. Lanier: I'll take my stand"
Not only the wealth, but the independence and secutity of a country, appear to be materially connected with the prosperity of manufactures. Every nation....ought to endeavor to possess within itself all the essentials of a national supply. These compromise the means of subsistence, habitation, clothing and defense.
Alexander Hamilton
In my opinion our current form of goverment and our new so called conservatives are traitors to what we were founded on. We deal with who we call tyrants to make a buck and then rationalize it to be for our own best interest. I personally love what the old preacher Bob Jones used to say. "never do wrong so you can later do right."
Surfing to me is one last refuge from the anything for a buck and me me me me ....more more more society in which we live. It's an escape. Those like surftech, the magazines and the clothing companies who get rich off trying to tell everyone what a surfer should be and then sell the hype to make a buck are whats bad in surfing. The guy who creates a design for us to surf on and then produces it himself is part of what is really cool about what we do. It's part social and part spiritual in my opinion.
Re: [solosurfer] you should all read this if you care about cust
"I don't believe DP is saying he is against Epoxy or popout tech. I think he is saying he is against the dishonest and anything for a buck mentality of Surftech and the like"
Hi Solo,
no offense but I think you really need to read DPs editorial....its full of pseudo-technical BS regarding EPS. Hey and on the reeeeel serious side, more people were put to death in Texas under "W" than at any other time....shoots man its like electric bleachers over there. I do agree with your other social arguments....commercialism and greed is way out of control...the media just fuels the fire....I see our society as sheep who have been brainwashed into constant shopping at the lowest price.
Some people hate Wal-mart (including me) and some love it. I have a very convenient WM store and I simply dont shop there.
I think DP is just a retro-modern craftsman who thinks the only way to make a board is by mowing PU foam with his hands. Maybe he's in it for the soul of the craft and I can appreciate that. But he's totally out of touch with alternate techiques and processes. There's a market for every product....shoots man people buy $50,000+ cars and SUVs.
So consumers have more choices....surftech or custom PU or whatever....if you dont believe in it dont buy it....I dont shop at Walmart and Im damn proud....when I talk to upper-middle class friends and hear they shop there, I forcefully opine that they should seek an alternative store....yet they just keep going....mo money money in my pocket pocket pocket.
onward....
_________________________________________________
I've come to the conclusion that surfers dont make good husbands, and women dont make good wives.
Re: [Bert_Burger] you should all read this if you care about cus
Bert,
This letter Dave wrote is several years old and was a reaction to an e-mail a bunch of arogant magazine kooks had sent out, mistakenly sent to Dave. It is only part of the picture.
I personally sell polyester resin, epoxy, pvc and everything else used in making Thermoset parts from surfboards to rocket parts and I am going to have to agree with Dave. The thing is, Epoxy is mainly safe today, however everybody is using what ever is available in their market for surfboards, and usually what is cheapest (seems to be the theme of a lot of swaylockians). I personally have customers that are sensitized to epoxy and sell them only product that is not aggressive. Also a ton of windsurf makers became sensitized by epoxy in the 80's and early 90's. Most of the "bad" materials are gone, but not all.
If everybody used a consistant epoxy that was deemed safe, such as Greg's material, it wouldn't be an issue. However I personally know people that can not be around epoxy due to being sensitized. This is a problem if what you make is composites for a living.
What Dave said about PVC foam and Urethane paint are true.
His Clark Foam information is very accurate. If you ever get a chance to visit the Clark Foam factory, it is very impressive.
The one note that was wrong is Fiberglass is actually too big to fit in your lungs. The micron size is too large. However I would still use some form of a respirator.
Bert I applaud you on your efforts and it is great to see that you are making such high end custom boards. Personnaly a $1000 is too cheap probably, it is a lot of work. One not though, back in the 80's the domestic windsurf manufactures got into a high tech war with the pop out guys and got their butts kicked. It is a war you can not win. Focusing on custom is the only way you will win against the Surtech's of the world, They have too much money behind them.
Re: [sluggo] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Yep....that letter is old. Poly is still crap....GOOD epoxy is better by far (I have only used G.L's epoxy....and am sold....) to any poly(worked in poly for years...). Customs are still the way to go.......Hmmm .........no new info here.........onward and upward......have fun......
Peace and waves..........
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Quote:
Maybe it's like flatware..
You only bust out the fine china and silverware for those special occasions but use the microwave dishwasher safe stuff on a day to day basis.
Excellent point as the (surfing) world gets more and more urbanized. I've long felt things could get broken down into 60/40 propositions. 6 days out of 10 you could ride a soft board or surftech, keeping in shape and in the neighborhood for those 4 days of conditions when you would want to ride the best board you could get your hands on to progress your experience.
Quote:
I think DP is just a retro-modern craftsman who thinks the only way to make a board is by mowing PU foam with his hands. Maybe he's in it for the soul of the craft and I can appreciate that
As said elsewhere, that letter is several years old. Using the 60/40 proposition outlined above, there is a place and market for everybody. There is a huge and very obvious difference between manufacturing and craft, and they both have positives and negatives, but they don't have to be mutally exclusive.
Re: [solosurfer] you should all read this if you care about cust
I have bought and owned handshaped customs, off the racks, and surftechs. These boards have come from 'big' guys, little guys, overseas sweat shops, unknowns, and D. Parmenter. All these boards have dinged (duh). Many have broken. This includes meticulously crafted well built boards from small guys as well as surftech popouts. all surfboards are fragile. If you want a 'stronger' board maybe you should go into collectible wall hangers or a different 'hobby'. People who really surf know that A. every board gradually deteriorates through use B. this deterioration is based on how hard you are on your boards and how well they are built (materials, craftsmanship & design) - none of these factors is independent. Please allow the the conceit of repetition:
NONE OF THESE FACTORS IS INDEPENDENT. arguing about this stuff is ridiculous - many many shapers over the years have tried many many combinations and it is only common sense that the best combination of materials would rise from the din. Anyone who has read enough about the history of surfing knows this. there are no conspiracies to squash innovation. who would be stupid enough to think so? Isn't it obvious that Clark would want to improve and refine his product for the sake of his business? Isn't it obvious that shapers love their craft and want to produce the best boards they can? Isn't it obvious that a generic popout board will only suit a generic popout surfer?
If you REALLY surf you ding damage and break boards.
If you have a shaper, you learn about board design by interacting with him, his boards, your waves, and thinking about it / keeping records. Hopefully by the time your (disposable) surfboard need replacing you have gleaned some insight regarding how certain parameters work FOR YOU and you use this info to IMPROVE upon the design with your next custom. If it falls apart before this time, then your baords are not right for you, or not well crafted - its not because they are or are not epoxy, PXTLF, LMNOP, or BS laminated. order more glass , more stringer, thicker......
If your board lasted forever wouldn't that HINDER your progress?
(I'd hate to be stuck on my first board still.....).
If you want it to last forever then hang it on your wall and get out of the water.
Thank you Mr Parmenter for pointing out the foolishness associated with these VERY UN-PC third world boards that are in no way superior (I have owned them) as well as the foolish opinions associated with their proponents' unqualified opinions.
shre-don
shred lil doggies shred.
shred-on shred-on shred-on lil' doggies
SHREDDOGGIE
Re: [solosurfer] you should all read this if you care about cust
These discussions are really pointless. They shouldn't even be published anymore.. Like Dave say in his dissertation:
"Cobra is reported to have sales that tally in at just under $100,000,000 a year. This would make them bigger than the entire American surfboard industry!"
People can scoff and bitch all they want but it really all comes down to money. The 300lb gorilla manages the marketplace, just like how Walmart controls the world of retail. You can say or feel anything you want, but you are't changing anything unless you're on their board of directors.
I work for one of the largest companies in Hawaii but at $9 billion in assets and our neighbor who's worth $30 billion we are only but nosehairs to the $300 billion dollar mega monoliths that control our marketplace globally.
Certain things can be controlled by the peanut gallery and other things can't especially anything regarding large scale economies and marketplaces. We are all fools to think otherwise so these kind of discussions are pretty much useless other than to feed fire to the fodder.
The best you can do is to just live your life the best you can, while you still can and do as little harm to everything and everyone else around you.
The big picture will go on no matter what you say, how you act or what you think. Unless you're on the scale of the Wizard of Omaha(Berkshire Hathaway), or a Richard Branson(Virgin Atlantic). Your chance of influencing global economies is pretty much non-existant.
In my humble opinion we shouldn't post these debates here anymore. It should be about design, experimentation and out-of-the-box ideas to try.. Thats why I love Chipfish he keeps it fresh..
Live Aloha Always...
What is it?
http://culturalkapolei.honadvblogs.com/2009/04/01/oneula-hau-bush/
Where is it?
http://www.inter-island.com/eva.html
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Here, here, Oneula. Nicely put.
Call me stupid, but I really don't care how well big companies or production shapers are doing. I haven't bought an off-the-rack board in a decade.
There'll always be a market (me) for well-made custom boards and for me to make my own boards (conditions which do not yet intersect).
_________________________________________________________
There are 10 types of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't.
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
The only point of contention I have with Parmenter's opus is where he likens "Mr. George's" publication to a comic book. I find this highly insulting to comic books.
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Fortunately surfers tire easily of anything oversold and overhyped. Heck most quit after high school or college.
The jobs going overseas and globalism we are now trying to push CAN most certainly be curbed and stopped. You look at the Robber Barons at the turn of the first century. They got stuffed by unions and presidents that helped push reform. Americans just like many of us on this board got those movements started. We are going to have to realize that the democrats nor the republicans are the answer any longer. There is little difference between the two.
One way to put a stop to the silly hype is to simply quit buying the products. Don't shop at so called surf shops that sell them. Go direct to your shaper. Many of these guys have their own tee shirts, boardies and such as well. Many surfshops have really aided the problem and are no longer really surf shops anymore anyway, but dept. store that sell surfboards. Very little attention is paid to the surfers needs only to selling the same things in the mags.
Sorry,
I have no problems with epoxy. I have ridden both, but epoxy is not some mesiah material. It's simply another material.
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
In response to Bert's critique of DP:
As a proponent of epoxy/polystyrene construction, you appear miffed at Parmenters criticisms. I would suggest you don't sweat it so much; if you and the surfers who ride your boards are happy (as are Parmenter and his constituency with his boards) who cares? Variety is the spice...
I would offer my own anecdotal evidence concerning my own experiments with expoxy/polystyrene, that were less than satisfactory. I concur with DP's assessment of the (apparently) inherent problems, such as the health risks of epoxy resin and the sponged water and tougher foam to mow with polystyrene.
More importantly (to me) were performance issues (which DP stated was his primary focus in surfboard design). I found the boards too "corky" (if that can be utilized as a technical term), and lacking in the critical flex characteristics (as Parmenter outlined) that I prefer with pu/pe constructed boards. They just felt as if they had no "snap" to them as well as, and forgive me for saying this (as I know it's considered blasphemous in today's ideology), too light for my tastes. I like the heft and momentum of a weightier board.
Granted, my toe only dipped into the epoxy/polystyrene waters briefly, and nearly a decade ago (I'm sure advancements have been made in that time) but the experience was sufficiently dissatisyfying to persuade me from any further association. Especially considering my ongoing positive experiments and experiences with pu/pe.
As for all that scientific mumbo/jumbo about shear and tensile strengths, I'll leave that up to you more technically inclined fellows. All I know is that one of my boards came back to me recently after the customer's mom drove over it with her mini-van and besides a snapped off fin (FCS worked as designed in this case; for all you detractors) and two stress cracks and some compression dings (complete with tire tread marks) on the bottom of the board, I would report that my pu/pe board came through the experience remarkably well!
Cheers and carry on!
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Quote:
In my humble opinion we shouldn't post these debates here anymore. It should be about design, experimentation and out-of-the-box ideas to try..
Since we all can't be at the same beach at the same time, these not-terribly-design related threads give us a chance to sit in the cyber parking lot and hash over what we've been seeing and thinking about lately. Design change and improvement - not always the same thing- can come about from environmental influences as much as specific wave dictates.
I'm not being snotty here either when I say we don't have to read the threads which we aren't interested in at the moment (and here we all get into our personal definitions of "Swaylaholicism" ;-) eh?). Sometimes it works wonders for me to leave them all alone for a while. The fact of the matter is the internet forum is the current communal meeting place with any meaning at all in the surfing world - the magazines are most (but not all) reduced by commercial needs and print publication leads times into soft core surf porn. The run of the mill magazines are about "Them" as opposed to us; celebrity culture is no culture at all.
Re: [Nels] you should all read this if you care about custom boa
Bravo Nels!
Re: [Nels] you should all read this if you care about custom boa
The issues that DP brought up have been discussed many times over and a great length here at Swaylocks. I think we've concluded that poly, epoxy, wood, or whatever can coexist here because we do not limit our potential for innovation to a fixed range of design, materials, or construction techniques. Those of us not into the R&D aspects freely give advice to new builders since they may well be innovators later on. Garage and small-scale shops are where virtually all new designs are conceived, refined, sometimes tossed in the trash and sometimes sold to the corporate world.
Re: [PeteC] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Randy French had to sell his first surfboard, he didn't start with $100,000,000 in sales. We can take him. Stay away from Wal Mart. Don't buy a surfboard at Costco. Sell your Surftechs to beginners and make a vacuum bag sandwich board like in Bert's posts. Keep Parmenter happy, keep buying his incredible shapes - so he doesn't have to write any more crap like that, jeesh! Support your local custom board builder!
What is the future custom board really going to be like? If you follow Bert's advice and jump in, you have a lot of reading and research to do before you can even consider the physical model... I went to a seminar on vacuum bagging, Friday, at Cerritos College - one of the leading plastics and composites manufacturing technology centers on the planet. (Thanks, Glenn...) I was almost embarrassed to admit that my passion was - surfboards - and sat in with three gentlemen from Korea who were getting the latest "facts" on vacuum bagging so they could take their million dollar autoclave and silicon bags back to their country and start producing nose cones for rockets. Yep, we are finally in step with "rocket scientists" And you know what? They were every bit excited with their million dollar equipment as I was excited to find a $49 dollar pump on e-Bay! And they didn't know everything, weren't afraid to ask stupid questions, or anything like that, and when it came time for the hands on part of the seminar, they weren't afraid to get their gloved hands dirty. They taught me a bunch about attitude...
If any young 'uns find this path...
Cerritos College Plastics/Composites Manufacturing Technology
(the fun factory)
Course Offerings: (Sample)
PMT 70 - Composite Technology - 2.5 units
This course emphasizes proper lay-up, vacuum bagging, and cure processing of wet laminating techniques and preimpregnated materials. Processes of resin transfer molding (RTM), filament winding, pultrusion, bonding, and fabrication of composite structures with honeycomb core materials are also covered.
This is one of twelve classes plus seven more nine week "short" courses.
$11.00 per unit and $45.00 miscellaneous fees.
www.cerritos.edu/mt
You'll be surfin and learnin, kinda wish I was a young 'un again...
Re: [daddio] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Having had my own learning experience in this field, I would highly recommend to anyone considering doing these courses should do so as soon as possible.
If you don't have a lot of experience, this is the perfect opportunity to get your hands on experience, and your surfboards will improve immediately.
And I think I can assure you, those fees are dirt cheap for what you would learn.
Good info daddio.
Greg
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Quote:
I have to agree with Bert.
I love Dave's boards, I own five of them (2-9'0"s, 2-7'0"s and a 7'4") and would buy more if I found the right one. His stuff is always reasonable priced, paddles well and just works for an old fart surfer like me.
All the west side folks love Dave as well. He's one of the few shapers I would buy off the shelf no questions asked. His vector, malolo and new fish designs are light years ahead of the pack.
Unfortunately the problem is the glass jobs on his boards, at least the ones I bought from Hale Nalu and BK West absolutely suck. Bump it the wrong way against your car or when you place it down on the ground and voila another new ding to worry about. Kind of makes having a great board useless when you patching it all the time.
Now I've accidently dropped my epoxy surftech when showering, had them fly off my racks or car hood on a windy day with absolutely no damage. I can't say that for 90% of the polys I own with the exception of George Ku's boards. But then again George has always built his boards extra tough for the Northshore with double and triple 6 and no gloss to save weight. The majority of the other board makers never do this.
Like I said as with all the other "westsiders" I love Dave's craftmanship, but I also see Grant, Buffalo and a bunch of other DP loyalists riding Surftech longboards instead Parmenters.
Maybe it's like flatware..
You only bust out the fine china and silverware for those special occasions but use the microwave dishwasher safe stuff on a day to day basis.
I'll be reading his latest disertation this weekend to try and absorb the mana'o but it printed out at 18 pages even in 10 point font.. Geez the dude can write.. Why doesn't he just publish a novel or something for us to kepp for posterity.
Again I'm in Bert's corner regarding longevity of a woodlammed epoxy sandwich performance vehicles but you have to give a nod to Dave's wisdom on the whole scheme of things as he sees it.
God I miss Rell..
Wonder what she would say to Dave about it all..
Hey oneula you from the west side? My whole family is from the west side and surf Makaha.
Dave like many others have dabbled many years ago in EPS and epoxy and various other types of construction. I can comment about alot of things i tried a few times BUT i would be speaking from ignorance. Did anyone think that you would shape the exact same board using different materials and constuction and have it work the same or better? It took 50 years to refine the traditional PU shapes to its modern form.
Re: [J.Troy] you should all read this if you care about custom b
J.Troy,
Do you know Kimo Leone and Sunshine? Kimo is a freind, but he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.
Re: [J.Troy] you should all read this if you care about custom b
J.Troy
No but I have alot of infamous family on Hawaiian homestead in Nanakuli and Maile. I grew up surfing Makaha, Maile, Kea'aus and Green Lanterns. Makaha was always a favorite of mine especially when Rell was alive as there was so much aloha when she was in the water with us. Somehow it doesn't feel the same any more I almost sense the same angry spirit in Dave's dissertation.
I grew up in Ewa Beach with Kimo Kauihou who's Dave's current glasser (Kepuhi Point). There's a new Westside magazine called Maika'i that has an cool article about Kimo, the first issue had one about Buff and another childhood friend Cyril. You can get the free Mag at any local Jamba Juice.
Grant(in his late 70's)comes down to my home break with his sons quite a bit especially if there's a swell and we've talked about how great Dave's boards are.. Funny thing though is although he treasures his custom DP he currently rides a new surftech his son bought him. When I surfed Makaha awhile back I was surprised to see Buffalo on a Surftech Wood Epoxy Longboard. Pretty funny since he can get a DP or RussK any time he wants. I'm sure during this last big well he was riding a BK or DP big gun in place of the popout.
Buffalo at Makaha reminds me of "Hawaiian" at Ali'i where you are. Another great character in the lineup.
As far as duplicating boards in EPS I don't think that that's Bert's take is on this whole new technology. To me it's more about a lighter, flexier device that lasts 10 times longer without have to using triple 6's or volan and tje associated weight. That's my take on this whole EPS/Epoxy/Wood/Vacuum technique. The Surftech argument is just silly, whatever Randy and Kym have coming to them it'll happen sooner or later.
Hey Solo I also agree with you that McCoy and Cheyne have been the biggest miss in surfing for a long time. McCoy/Cheyne should as much get more credit for the no-nose than the whole thruster rollout.
As far as the ongoing discussion Surfers and Surf Culture is such a microdot in the whole global economic system it's not funny so don't kid yourself. For the idealists who are planning on changing the world please give me an ETA on when you plan on getting rid of either WalMart and Microsoft since they have had such a greater negative impact on the "small guy" than Surftech ever did. Apparantly your boycotting hasn't changed a thing. I can then adjust my investment portfolio before they tank like Apple, Enron, Merck, and Phizer did.
What I learned from Rell is that you do what you do to the best of your abilities and live life in an honest and clean way but live it to its fullest as you never know how much time you have. Like the kupuna say the more aloha you give, the more you'll receive. You may not get it right away or from those you give it to but it'll come.
The good ones always seem to die young it's so sad.. But somehow as we keep going on we need to remember them to keep from getting bitter in our old age..
Live Aloha Always...
What is it?
http://culturalkapolei.honadvblogs.com/2009/04/01/oneula-hau-bush/
Where is it?
http://www.inter-island.com/eva.html
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
everybody is freaking out on vacuum construction at the moment like its the "new thing"...
Bert was saying that he was doing this 15 years ago. if you look at every windsurfing website for the last 15-20 years they all have been doing the same lay up. no offense bert, your post was more than interesting but i dont understand why people are so stocked on "the new deal".
the tom sullivan video is about 15 years old and they show exactly what bert is showing.
the question i have to ask is why it didnt take off 15 years ago, why we are still riding polyester?
probably because it work so good... dont you think?
i know a factory in my area that build custom winsurfer the same as bert and also polyester surfboards.they are equip to do both but why they still do polyester boards??
i have a friend in europe that own a big factory and they have been experimenting with it for a while and the feed back they have from the rider (maybe they are not use to it) was that they are too light, too stiff and dont feel as good as a polyester. it cant be propaganda because the guy as no soul towards polyester, he just want better and he is looking for an alternative.
bert do you get those feedback? are they too light???
i am confuse.
is it a new learning curve to ride those boards?
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
SPEAKIN' Howz the Blears,Hawk.Tell Herb sayz howzit.Herb
____________________________________________________________
evil prevails where good people fail to act.
____________________________________________________________
Re: [HerbSpitzer] you should all read this if you care about cus
Howzit Herb, Jimmy Blears moved here last year and is/ was living with his sister and her husband. He showed up one day to help us judge a contest and we cracked up since we hadn't seen each other since the early 70's before I moved to Kauai. I haven't seen him around for a while so he may have gone back to Oahu since his dad is in bad health and has dementia also. He looks a lot older than he is and gets a little spacey when you talk to him but he can still hold it together enough to be a good judge and it's fun working with him at the contests. We were scheduled to judge a contest yesterday but it was cancelled due to the big surf. I figured if he was still on Kauai he would be there to judge but now I'll ask around to see if he's still here. Aloha,Kokua
Aloha, Kokua
Re: [kokua] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
K
Sorry to hear about The Lord's health.Guess something we all will face,if not now, soon,aye.
Laura might remember me better.We use to surf Makaha mid-day alot in 74-76.Most of the times just a group of girls and me.......nice!I always use to melt when Laura would show-up.She was so nice to me and say something first,but I was so bashful I could hardly get a squeek out.........she'd probably remember me as the kid who lived in the bend of the road on Makui(sp?) w/ Jamie"Hawk"Monroe,my older bro Bob,and Aaron.Herb
____________________________________________________________
evil prevails where good people fail to act.
____________________________________________________________
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
"everybody is freaking out on vacuum construction at the moment like its the "new thing"... "
You mean everyone on Swaylocks right?
Has anyone showed the process step by step before here for free? No. Many guys realize that vac is not new but seeing it done step by step was impressive...and I dont easily impress. Freakazoid.
Are Surftech's the "new thing"?
A lighter less dent resistant (more durable) surfboard is a good "new thing". The only real problem people have is where they're made, market share and who's making the profits. I know people who have been surfing 30 years and are now using Surftechs....again lighter stronger. Thats the reality. I dont own one but I plan to make me something very close, if not better, myself.
Done PU and EPS...
onward.........
PS - I plan to go lighter and lighter until it stops serving me well....next stop < 6lb........journey onward....
_________________________________________________
I've come to the conclusion that surfers dont make good husbands, and women dont make good wives.
Re: [meecrafty] you should all read this if you care about custo
Surftechs are pressure molded..............not vac/molded............a BIG,BIG difference guys.
...........Then they're painted w/ appliance epoxy.Herb
____________________________________________________________
evil prevails where good people fail to act.
____________________________________________________________
Re: [meecrafty] you should all read this if you care about custo
I think if you read all the posts regarding Bert's (and others) vacuum molding process, you'll see why some of us are freaking out. As Meecrafty points out, he lays it out for all to see and isn't asking a penny in return. If guys like Michael Jones can glue up a dual density blank, sandwich it with high density foam and fiberglass and come out with a sub 5 pound board that after a year of use doesn't even have a pressure dent (in his living room no less), aren't you freaking out?!
I've read lots of posts about the evil third world boards and loss (or potential loss) of surfing industry jobs in the US. This might not support the industry but it is an alternative... do it strong, do it light and do it yourself at home.
Too light? That's a good one!
Re: [meecrafty] you should all read this if you care about custo
Quote: The only real problem people have is where they're made, market share and who's making the profits..
Are you trying to say that all of us who simply don't like the way they feel and surf are lying? Sure, we have problems with the things with the who, where, and the money but we also simply don't like the way surftech boards surf: they are too stiff, sound weird, are too corky, etc.
As for durability, who cares? I've had a Harbour Simms longboard for the last 5 years. It was Terry's board before I bought it used so it obviously didn't come to me in perfect condition. It's been repaired by me, and one "fix a bunch of stuff for $110" trip to a real ding guy. It doesn't look so great but it still surfs great and I wouldn't trade it for half a dozen new surftechs. The only way this thing will leave me is if you give me a brand new one exactly the same. The only other boards I've surfed during the time of this longboard ownership are also still alive and with very few dings (a CI thruster, a Cole thruster, and occasional use of vintage twins I dig up, and a Harbour Spherical Revolver). I live in Nor Cal and surf waves from Ocean Beach to Santa Cruz that are as large and powerful as 90% of surfers in California. So forgive me for not seeing any benefit in the "stronger" claim of surftech (or balsa or whatever). I don't think 90% of the surfers need a stronger board.
Re: [JohnMellor] you should all read this if you care about cust
it is true that it will keep up against surftech but my question is do they really surf well????
i guess i will build one to see for myself.
i am sick of everybody's feedback about too light or too stiff... people are pissing me off, i am building polyester boards at the moment and the complain are too heavy or too weak!!! figure it out??
is the mass dumb?
surfers are never happy?
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Greetings!
It is my (I, Bonta) opinion that the feedback is of limited value! I ride a surfing board of the most heavy stiff weight and durable strength. It is the awesome greatest for domination! The proof is many complaining bookies as I run them over to the left and to the right! Bonta (myself) am also sick of everybody's pissing off feedback!! Therefore standing firmly upon the sandy beaches I shall proudly proclaim, "You truly are the dumb masses because you are the pissed off bookies!"
The bookies I surf against are never happy.
Re: [louis] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Maybe I'm wrong but my take on the vacuum bag stuff is a little different. I was thinking that I would just order a shaped regular board from any of the great shapers here in Hawaii and then wood lam and epoxy glass the board myself using the technique Bert showed us and what I'm learning about balsa strip lamming from Surfgear.
You don't have to use EPS and you don't have to epoxy once you build the wood shell around the foam with the vacuum.
You should end up with a stronger board with a thicker more protective skin around the foam. And it shouldn't ride too much different than a regular board. That's my goal. The cheap home depot styro blanks do open the door for alot more experimentation in the masses to happen as we're witnessing here and that's good.
I agree EPS Surftech shortboards ride crappy if you don't have the juice cause they can't carry momentum after a big carve unless you wiggle your ass like most modern high performance surfers do. If you surf like BK or Terry Fritz you'll struggle with a surftech unless it's a longboard. If you hop, launch or do 20 turns in ten feet of horizontal you'll love them. As such I don't think Surftechs are really purchased for their performance qualities.
But it must mean something that so many are being sold. In my opinion its the final transition where a specialized product moves from an artsy space into just another retail commodity that you buy like everything else you purchase nowadays. The current artisans need to differentiate by improving time to market, quality of product, and level of customer service. People will seek out and pay a premium if they can understand the added value. That's why Bert can sell his boards for $1000 and a years wait, because his cliental comprehend that the value being delivered is worth the cost in time and money. Until that happens to the rest of the industry the best retailer will continue to win the lions share of the market. Product management 101.
Live Aloha Always...
What is it?
http://culturalkapolei.honadvblogs.com/2009/04/01/oneula-hau-bush/
Where is it?
http://www.inter-island.com/eva.html
Re: [oneula] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Quote:
J.Troy
No but I have alot of infamous family on Hawaiian homestead in Nanakuli and Maile. I grew up surfing Makaha, Maile, Kea'aus and Green Lanterns. Makaha was always a favorite of mine especially when Rell was alive as there was so much aloha when she was in the water with us. Somehow it doesn't feel the same any more I almost sense the same angry spirit in Dave's dissertation.
I grew up in Ewa Beach with Kimo Kauihou who's Dave's current glasser (Kepuhi Point). There's a new Westside magazine called Maika'i that has an cool article about Kimo, the first issue had one about Buff and another childhood friend Cyril. You can get the free Mag at any local Jamba Juice.
Grant(in his late 70's)comes down to my home break with his sons quite a bit especially if there's a swell and we've talked about how great Dave's boards are.. Funny thing though is although he treasures his custom DP he currently rides a new surftech his son bought him. When I surfed Makaha awhile back I was surprised to see Buffalo on a Surftech Wood Epoxy Longboard. Pretty funny since he can get a DP or RussK any time he wants. I'm sure during this last big well he was riding a BK or DP big gun in place of the popout.
Buffalo at Makaha reminds me of "Hawaiian" at Ali'i where you are. Another great character in the lineup.
As far as duplicating boards in EPS I don't think that that's Bert's take is on this whole new technology. To me it's more about a lighter, flexier device that lasts 10 times longer without have to using triple 6's or volan and tje associated weight. That's my take on this whole EPS/Epoxy/Wood/Vacuum technique. The Surftech argument is just silly, whatever Randy and Kym have coming to them it'll happen sooner or later.
Hey Solo I also agree with you that McCoy and Cheyne have been the biggest miss in surfing for a long time. McCoy/Cheyne should as much get more credit for the no-nose than the whole thruster rollout.
As far as the ongoing discussion Surfers and Surf Culture is such a microdot in the whole global economic system it's not funny so don't kid yourself. For the idealists who are planning on changing the world please give me an ETA on when you plan on getting rid of either WalMart and Microsoft since they have had such a greater negative impact on the "small guy" than Surftech ever did. Apparantly your boycotting hasn't changed a thing. I can then adjust my investment portfolio before they tank like Apple, Enron, Merck, and Phizer did.
What I learned from Rell is that you do what you do to the best of your abilities and live life in an honest and clean way but live it to its fullest as you never know how much time you have. Like the kupuna say the more aloha you give, the more you'll receive. You may not get it right away or from those you give it to but it'll come.
The good ones always seem to die young it's so sad.. But somehow as we keep going on we need to remember them to keep from getting bitter in our old age..
Rell was very close to several members of my family. If you surf Makaha then you should know the DeSoto family. John, Bruce, Ronald, Duane, etc...
Rells wake was at my mother inlaws house in Makaha valley and they were close friends.
As far as DP hes a friend of the family and a nice guy...in fact he taught my uncle Bruce how to shape and even gave him a skill 100 to start. Hes interesting though, on one hand hes anti surf industry and on the other he makes a living in it.
Traditional poly/pu shapes Vs. Epoxy and other types of constuction, I agree the argument is somewhat silly.
Like em hate em indifferent. Like in every other industry the market will decide what they want. Surftech doesnt seem to be going anywhere and in fact seems to be growing so I guess the market has decided that they do WANT a stronger board that lasts without pressure dents and dings that traditional boards get so often.
So as it is in every other industry you need to be flexible. Evolve and change or go the way of the dinasour. Not saying the traditional shape will be pushed out anytime soon but changes are not only coming but already here.
I give guys like Greg L and Bert props for having the foresight and dedication to develop new materials and construction techniques AND to offer it to me and you here on Swaylocks.
Re: [solosurfer] you should all read this if you care about cust
Quote:
J.Troy,
Do you know Kimo Leone and Sunshine? Kimo is a freind, but he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth.
No but the names sound familiar.
Re: [J.Troy] you should all read this if you care about custom b
well it seems like some of the same old content has circulated once again ..
its seems i may have appeared miffed in my response to some of daves critique about composites in regards to eps, sandwich,timber,pvc, epoxy and so on ...
they were the main points that caught most of my attention , i do accept that those words were written some time back , so chances are he may have had time to revise some of those assumptions about eps /epoxy/sandwich.....
and like solosurfer pointed out and with which i fully agree , was the points about the responsability of the surf media (or lack of it) ..
i did actually agree with many of the points about surftech in regards to performance ...
but theres some basic points i really have to make clear ...
are all p/u p/e constructed boards high performance ???
is there much difference between performance in the shapes of a range of different shapers ???
those two questions highlight the point that not all p/u p/e boards ride the same ...
so why is it that when a handful of board builders make a few epoxy boards they feel they can label a whole new branch of surfboard construction just coz they couldnt work out how to get those materials to perform ???
lets say there was no epoxy , eps, pvc, or any sandwich materials in existence....
and the only thing we had to choose from was either a custom constructed p/u p/e or a moulded p/u p/e ....
what would be the choice of the majority of surfers ???
who would be the market for the moulded p/u p/e boards ???
ok so only kooks and kids would use moulded p/u p/e boards ..
see the point there...
so what does the fact that you have experienced long time surfers riding moulded sandwich boards really tell you???
if a custom p/u p/e is way superior in performance and preference to a pop out moulded p/u p/e ...
then how much more so is a custom epoxy sandwich going to be superior in performance and preference to a moulded epoxy sandwich board ...
the point was made that what i was showing was getting done 15 years ago ...
my point exactly , thats why i had no trouble showing it coz its what i was doing 15 years ago ..
but unless someone showed it ,where would the mainstream industry get a chance to jump in ???
what i showed was a door way to the next level ... once at the next level there is still way more mindblowing stuff to discover ...
and yet people exist that would have no trouble trying to shut that door on others , saying " o yea i had a look inside , didnt like it , you wont like it either , dont bother going in !!!!" ...
history is full of examples of explorers who made a judgement on a place without having a good look around to discover all the riches a place had to offer ...
the dutch snubbed australia and didnt even want it because there first encounter with australia was in inhospitable section of coastline with lazy natives ...
they concluded that nothing would grow , the natives would be no good as slaves , and because of the lack of precious metals or stones in the possession of the natives ,, that the land was good for nothing ...
but the reality is australia has more natural resources and prime fertile land per head of capita than anywhere else in the world ....
so just because a few explorers came across a barren or unproductive part of the eps , epoxy , sandwich equation doesnt mean theres not more riches beneath the surface ...
i personally feel that those making the judgements have no authority to do so based on there limited experience ...
if i had to add up the number of balsa sandwich boards , with the ones ive built for others under other labels , then the number of eps venneer , eps xtr sandwich combos , xtr sandwich combos , xtr veneer combos , eps pvc combos ,, then all the epoxy stuff combined with the vac formed veneers over p/u using p/e resin plus the ones ive done for others with other labels and all the stuff that i still havent mentioned id have a figure of between 4500 and 5000 vacumn bagged boards alone , plus working on close to twice that many conventional boards for myself and others ...
so when a guy says " i rode a surftech and didnt like it " or says " yea i made a few epoxy boards but they didnt feel any good " i respect those opinions ...
but to write off an entire branch of construction based on limited contact with it clearly shows an ignorant attitude ...
but here comes the offensive bit to many ...
i will write off an entire branch of contruction ,,,
for the very reason that i have had extensive experience with both ...
the fact is i will never make or ride another p/u p/e board ever , except may be to make a mould from ...
i had a customer come in today to order a board ...
he already has 2 surftechs , he only just recently found out about me as hes just moved from overseas , he made the comment today " i cant believe its taken the surfboard industry so long to move forward " he then said " i reckon in ten years sandwich boards will become industry standard " ..
with no real experience of my boards or my work he was willing to hand over 400 bucks deposit and wait another year to hand over the other 1000 for a longboard .. just based on his experience with surftechs and the fact that he could now get a custom sandwich board ....
so why would i go back to haggling with tightarses over a cheap polyester board that the guy up the road would only do cheaper , then if the price still wasnt right that same tightass would go get a cheap imported asian poly pop out that a retailer is selling at no profit just to get the profit with a few accessories he sells with the board , only to have the same tightass come back 3 months later whingeing that his board isnt as light or as strong as a surftech , and that hes got dents all over his deck and his board is going brown where the dings are , and how it shrunk and collapsed after he left it in his car on a hot day ...
surftech sold 18 000 boards last year ...
theres 18 000 customers in the market for a custom sandwich board ...
you do the maths ....
unless you want every board in the world to come out of asian production houses , then the only real salvation of the surfboard industry is the custom sandwich ,, what else is going to restore the balance ??
many conventional boards are already artificially placed in the market place for no other reason than to prop up the validity of clothing labels ...
you can guarantee that if labels like rusty and a few other board producing labels didnt force retailers into stocking boards just to get the clothing , the retailers wouldnt stock the boards ....
the reason some of these labels are still selling boards and arent interested in pushing the boundries of construction in surfboards is because they have a comfortable market because retailers want access to there clothing and so are forced to stock antiquated boards ...
what that does to the credibility of a clothing label only time will tell??
theres many stories and reasons why different agendas are pushed by the different players in the industry ...
but the fact that im touting a particular direction with no financial interests at stake , only seems to make what i have to say more valid ....
dig a little deeper , read between the lines , search for untapped resources ...
its all there in abundance ...
not all the explorers have seen everything ....
regards
BERT
Taking orders again ...
Contact details updated ...
Re: [Bert_Burger] you should all read this if you care about cus
Bert,
I agreed with almost everything you just wrote. Great post. My friend Steve Forstall has been doing the epoxy thing here in Florida for quite awhile now and has made major innovations to the construction of his boards and the ease of cutting blancks etc. It allows him to make great product and not have to sell so many boards or deal with Retailers to make the same money. There appears to be much more freedom of choice when it comes to blanks when you make your own instead of depending upon Clark or another foam companies product to be up to par and affordable all the time. The cool thing is many guys like Steve are willing to share their knowledge, but few want to step out of their own egos and listen with an open mind.
In fact, boardmakers really should have been their own surf shops or retailers all along, but artist rarely want to be salesmen or retain jail owners.
Re: [solosurfer] you should all read this if you care about cust
Here is a question for the Gurus.If you are a ployester board builder and you want to build a stronger board why are you using cheap"clear" resins like Silmar??How many of you have even looked in to other polyester resins?Gordon Clark said he could build a better blank using better resins but felt that the market would not stand it (or quite simply he didn't want to do it).This resin question is never brought up on Swaylocks and I wonder why?
Re: [Bert_Burger] you should all read this if you care about cus
Re: Bert's passionate defense of his custom sandwich constructed boards and his critique of those of us who are less than impressed.
Bert has stated he would never produce another Pu/pe board presumably because he is convinced of the superiority of his custom sandwich boards. Yet he has not detailed their superiority with regards to either construction or performance. He supports his position based on the fact that he has more experience (than his supposed detractors whom he presumes have only dabbled in epoxy/eps/vacuum bagged construction) with both methods. We are asked simply to take him at his word because he has made thousands of these boards and he ought to know.
So first I'll pose this question: What is exactly superior in the construction of your boards?
For me, my bottom line involves two criteria: Performance and Cost.
With this in mind, my second question would be (and I consider this to be far more important than the method of construction): How are your boards superior in their performance? This I believe was the crux of DP's argument as well.
Concerning cost, my last question is: Do either the method of construction or the performance of your boards justify their expense ? I would suspect in the area of construction, they probably do but in the area of performance, they probably don't (I could be wrong too but so far you've provided no evidence to suggest otherwise). I could build myself an entire quiver (in a few weeks time mind you), for the cost of just one of your boards.
I'm a garage builder who shapes mostly for my own consumption with a few boards every year for family and friends, and lately, a few friends of friends.
I'm not in this for the money but the satisfaction of designing my own boards (most of which are certainly not in vogue with popular current designs). I have been doing this long enough that I feel comfortable with both the structural integrity and performance of my self designed, pu/pe boards. One of the great advantages (that DP addressed in his article) is the flexibilty I feel this system has for builders like me. If I'm dissastisfied with a design aspect, I can quickly address it and build a new board (or even modify the board itself by stripping glass and reshaping). I also find pu/pe to be a highly forgiving medium. If mistakes are made (or dings are acquired) they can be easily patched and fixed, in most cases even to the point where cosmetics are rendered invisible.
I'm not looking for boards that I can hit with a baseball bat or boards that last until the next millenium (although I've certainly owned and built boards that have lasted quite some time). Not only do I get bored with designs I've ridden for awhile, but I'm always on a quest for the next design that will provide me the performance I seek. And I don't want to break my bank account to do it. I need that money for more important things, like gas to get to the beach!
No disrespect intended here, but I truly feel you haven't outlined just why your boards and methods of construction are so much better. While I admire people who are interested and motivated to pursue more progressive ideas, in this area at least, I remain skeptical that anyone has thus far achieved anything demonstrably better. While your boards are certainly pretty to look at, I remained unconvinced they provide a superior ride.
Is it possible, that although the currently still predominate methods of surfboard construction have been in use for 50+ years, maybe we have proof of how far advanced the materials and builders of that time were?
In closing, I'm reminded of the old axiom, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Cheers again.
Re: [lobster] you should all read this if you care about custom
In closing, I'm reminded of the old axiom, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
-the problem is there... it is broken and i am sick of fixing it!!!!
Re: [lobster] you should all read this if you care about custom
I don't think Bert's asking anyone to change, just giving people some info to help them open their mind.
If you, like DP, enjoy the medium you use, then continue to use it as you want.
If you like playing with epoxy, vac bags and other foams, then use them.
Be happy. Self control is not necessarily self defense. My boards ripped too.
Do what you want to do, be what you want to be, yeah.
Greg
Re: [Wildy] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Bert, my recommendation to you is just take some time with your family cause logging in to battle this windmill just ain't where it's at...
Watch some television with your family, I'll outline some of the better channels for you:
The History Channel. The money spent on R&D before Swaylocks was a lot harder to part with than now cause you were alone in the frontier of change or surrounded by a group of like minded idealists and were subservient to the "industry leaders" and easily short circuited ("You don't want to do THAT, son, but could you tell me how you did it and don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out?!). Now you can lay down a jazz riff or rap or punk or whatever and someone else will build on it and someone else will come along and do it on the cheap and so on and so on.
The Economics Channel. Consumers and manufacturers or investors and financeers? Funny, the mention of Apple, cause I believe their stock is on the rise again. (since the man with the PASSION, Steve Jobs, is back at the helm) I believe that Enron and all others mentioned including Randy French got what THEY wanted (your money, money, money...money) and that will not change cause of anyone's rant, but I'm surprised that the money that was drained from investment portfolios and the gain in the personal riches of certain "industry leaders" doesn't equate for so many of (us).
The Idealists Channel. I could/would stand on the street corner and rant against the war but every time I gas up and pay that federal tax - I'm supporting the new-age freedom crusade. Come to think of it, the social security tax money and system that was put in effect to protect us Americans from catastrophic melt-down (see the great depression thread) is about to be done away with for the above reason, but I don't hear any complaints. Why? I dunno, but THAT is why I choose to NOT to buy a Surftech. I can't wish or rant them away, nor do I want to, I've got to tap into the market that Bert and Greg are "re-creating" (started by Randy) and "may the best man win."
The Fine Art Channel. My wife, who is an art teacher, taught me the importance of "human touch". Make whatever you do your own. If you were an artist and had to paint Picassos or Monets all day cause that is what Aunt Mabel thinks is the only real art, would you be an artist? (Yes and mostly no) Don't let the machine or mold take over. Even if you just scratch the foam with your fingernail on every machine shaped clone or molded blank you handle, that's a good enough start (see Flavio thread for the REAL story). The future is skewing off so fast anyway it's unbelieveable. The changes aren't in the wind - they are the wind. If you stick your head in the sand you'll be blown away.
Advertising - every channel, like it or not. See the Surfer magazine and etc. (surfers and surf culture) On the internet you can hire marketing companies that watch for trends or actually hire the young'uns to post to forums, similar to this one, and through constant postings and evangelism try to manipulate the target audience into reacting in a predefined way. Hell, for that matter you can sponsor entire forums, just like this one, to see what the backyard contigent is up to. Is this really a "free" site? Heehee. Why are you stirring up trouble anyway, ya big jerk. Do you represent the pump manufacturers of Australia? Where's Roy? He was a good foil for the industry, nobody could even think straight when he posted, and most of the regulars went into hiding, were drawn into needless rambling dissertations, or were bitten by the nostalgia bug, "Gosh I miss the old Swaylocks, sigh"
If you were Quicksilver or Volcom would you want it to change? Isn't it pretty easy to pick-up a truckload of blanks shaped on a machine glassed in a factory and then leverage those Trojan horses into the real industry - apparel? My point (to the "custom" industry) is, if you firmly believe that scraping the crust off of a pre-rockered close-tolerance blank and fine tuning that either by hand or machine is shaping a custom board - have I got an imported wood veneer board for you!!! Hmmmm... Wait a minute!
For the Green Egg and Hammers, check-out - www.americanbamboo.org It seems China is giving back already.
Re: [Wildy] you should all read this if you care about custom bo
Wildy
Well said,that is exactly what people should do.
As for the future of surfboard construction,well time and the customers wants will decide that regardless of what builders think they should have.
All builders should remember that without customers you have nothing!
I manage a factory building luxury heavy yachts (oysters) which are sold as being the best world crusing boats
In reality they are old fashoned hull shapes and old solid glass polester layups ,I dont think that they sail that well.
My own boat has sailed around the world,it is light, fast and built using modern composite construction .
I would have a hard time convincing the masses that it is that much better than the so called best world crusers.
The sailing world will eventually evolve as will the surfing world,in the mean time I make a living that lets my family live very well and lets me build as many surfboards as I want
Do my surfboards perform better than custom made boards from a builder, I have no idea, to me each one is a step further in the evolution.These days I am doing sandwich construction and each one is better than the last
Next I may try some thing different again,as there are many many ways to skin that cat!!
Regards Mike
Ps the debate is mine better than yours is a futile one,an open mind and a positive exchange of ideas between builders with a comon goal is the best way to speed up evolution
Re: [sabs] you should all read this if you care about custom boa
BTW: I mostly ride poly boards not epoxy.
As for Surftech, Quicksilver and the surf industry. Don't think it can't change. They sold it because of the cool factor and when that is taken away they can go away as well. Joel Tudor almost single handed ushered in this silly retro phase of the surf industry. Surftechs will go whichever way surfshops go and I believe surfshops as they are today are on the decline.
Why? Because they represent nothing but some over the hill guys ego or some kid pretending to be hard core by buying a fabricated identity. You can buy it all in the mall my friends and without the too cool for school looks from the surf shops.
Good board builders are where the magic is. Always has been and always will be. The day plastic toys like Surftech become the mainstream we will not longer recognize soul and stoke. The magic comes from a shaper having looked down the stringer of my custom and saying, "that'l do Pig."
Re: [daddio] you should all read this if you care about custom b
Quote:
The future is skewing off so fast anyway it's unbelieveable.
Truer words have not been written.
Factor in this: The Los Angeles Times reported last week that Quiksilver says they finally reached 1 billion dollars in annual sales. For the life of me I can't see how this will affect my life, other than perhaps filing the hair-trigger on my Gag-O-Meter. Billabong has a big amphibious plane to fly to wherever the surf is good. The secular journalists who covered this last week failed to ask how smart it is to land a large seaplane in an ocean with heavy swells. In theory I suppose there will always be a calm lagoon to set down in if the price is right. You can't make this shit up. It finally occurred to me that maybe all this really is just cheap entertainment on a global scale.
Re: [MaraboutSlim] you should all read this if you care about cu
Re: [lobster] you should all read this if you care about custom
Quote:
lobster wrote
Bert has stated he would never produce another Pu/pe board presumably because he is convinced of the superiority of his custom sandwich boards. Yet he has not detailed their superiority with regards to either construction or performance. He supports his position based on the fact that he has more experience (than his supposed detractors whom he presumes have only dabbled in epoxy/eps/vacuum bagged construction) with both methods. We are asked simply to take him at his word because he has made thousands of these boards and he ought to know.
Bert has given us much more than just his word, hes given us here his techniques. Alot more than you can say about hundreds of PU makers. Ive been to many many factories and only a few were willing to give out any knowledge about the process. Bert has videos of him jumping up and down on one of his boards and it didnt break. If you show me a the same thing on a PU board ill eat my shorts.
Quote:
For me, my bottom line involves two criteria: Performance and Cost
For many performance is only part of the equasion. Just by the sheer volume surftech does the market is saying we want a stronger board. Even with lots of negative press surftech still sells...go figure.
Cost: Me personally id ante up for a board that lasts much longer. No pressure dents/dings, high resale, what there to lose? You buy a PU and lose a ton of value on the first day in the water.
Quote:
With this in mind, my second question would be (and I consider this to be far more important than the method of construction): How are your boards superior in their performance? This I believe was the crux of DP's argument as well.
Ive surfed CRAP boards from the most prominent shapers in the world. Does that mean PU boards are no good? Of course not.
Quote:
Concerning cost, my last question is: Do either the method of construction or the performance of your boards justify their expense ? I would suspect in the area of construction, they probably do but in the area of performance, they probably don't (I could be wrong too but so far you've provided no evidence to suggest otherwise). I could build myself an entire quiver (in a few weeks time mind you), for the cost of just one of your boards.
Bert should answer this question but until me or you ride a few were just guessing.
This is a mentality that baffles me.
Quote:
Is it possible, that although the currently still predominate methods of surfboard construction have been in use for 50+ years, maybe we have proof of how far advanced the materials and builders of that time were?
Possible but unlikely.
Being in and around the industry for a relatively short period of 11 years the prevalant attitudes ive seen make this hard to believe.
No one wants to take (understandably) financial risks in a low margin industry. No one wants to learn new techniques they figure hey ive done it this way for so long i aint changing.
Anyway thats my 2cents or whatever its worth.